Cave Training and Etiquette Real or Imaginary?

[Omisson]

....On an unrelated note to the above, because this discussion has gained a lot of interest and sparked many side discussions, I had a quick chat with Kelly Jessop last night and was very disappointed with his response. This was determined on or around February 21st and the board was informed, but there were no formal announcements via email, Scubaboard, CDF, or even the NSSCDS main page.

See this is the sort angled "just so story" that spreads and people believe it... It's not quite accurate.

The election was announced publicly on the boards and calls for nominations made on the CDS Website, Cave Divers Forum, and here on Scuba Board:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/cave-diving/499585-nss-cds-elections-2015-a.html


NSS-CDS Elections 2015

2015 NSS-CDS Board of Directors Election | National Speleological Society Cave Diving Section


But only one person was nominated who wasn't an incumbent. He backed out. The organization can't force people to run. If you wanted to - you should have. But it's hardly fair to complain no one ran when you yourself didn't.

Now, Under the rules - election results are announced May 9, just before the May meeting of the board (held at the workshop).

So would you like the board to violate the rules and announce the results earlier? That sets a bad precedent. Should the organization "announce" there were no volunteers interested in running? Great PR there...

So in short the board followed the rules and acted in the best interests of the organization.

Since only Cave Instructors vote on the training director that's an in-house procedure from within their ranks. There are a finite number of them (for good reason) and I think it is reasonable for them to handle their election for training director the way they do. Do you disagree?

So what exactly was your point? There are many committee chairs and other volunteers who do things for the CDS who do not want or need to be board members. We don't NEED more Chiefs - just more Indians - as the phrase goes....

---------- Post added April 9th, 2015 at 12:19 PM ----------

And the board minutes through December 2014 are posted- as well as updates on the workshop, training days and a few other 2015 events... It may not be flash current but it isn't horribly out of date either....

 

[tbone1004]

Dan, like I said, I was not eligible to run this year due to not having been a CDS member for a full year prior to the elections since I had let it lapse otherwise I would have. I did not say that they didn't announce the elections, those were made very clear, it was the results of the elections that have not been announced that was frustrating as I was expecting to receive my ballot a month ago and was curious why it was never announced.

I'm aware the minutes are posted through the end of last year, but there is still a large lag in updates on the website which shouldn't be all that difficult given that there aren't that many updates to give. As far as announcing the results, it would have been nice to at least been informed that due to lack of nominated candidates ballots would not be sent out, sure it's bad PR, but it is just delaying the inevitable which will show up in May when they announce that everyone was re-elected by default.

Your chief vs indian comment is confusing because this isn't about electing more, it is about replacing. I am thoroughly furious with the NACD right now because of the musical chairs that was played a few months ago, that is not how this is supposed to work, we called them out on Larry being "emeritus" but still having a vote, he is now no longer emeritus, great, but the musical chairs and re-electing of incumbents by default going on in both organizations says a lot about the general apathy of the community. It basically says "we don't really have enough respect for you guys to bother voting or running for the positions because we don't see any benefit". It has nothing to do with the people in those positions, it has everything to do with the people voting for them or running against them. Like I said in that thread, I have no issue with everyone getting re-elected, I think it is almost necessary that there was continuity especially in the Chairman and Training Director spots as we are going through School Sink as well as this thread, but to have them run unopposed means one of two things, 1. no one thought they could do any better, which we all know isn't the case; or 2. no one cared to run because they didn't see any point.

Right now the cave community has essentially 0 respect for the NACD and the NSS-CDS, many members have left because they received nothing out of membership, many CDS members are only members so they have access to Cow and then drop it if they aren't going to use it. Treat it the same way as a season pass to Ginnie/JB. The agencies aren't a driving force in the community any more and it is really just sad. This thread needed to happen years ago, but now it has, and I hope this is the swift kick that both boards needed to realize that they need to be really leading the effort and not just sitting back. Times have changed, the world has changed, it is time to change with it. I hope that this year brings a lot of changes from both parties, and I hope that when we are all sitting drinking beer in Florida this time next year for the CDS convention that we go "damn, that was the best year we've had in a long time, things are really getting better".

 

[Rick Murchison]

I can vouch for that! Early in my caving experience I did it going in. It is far too easy, and though I didn't suffer any adverse consequences, realizing after the fact (on the way out) what I'd done - and the hole it'd left in my "picture" - was mortifying. It's fine to enjoy the scenery - after all, that's part of the attraction - but not at the expense of attention to detail.
Rick

Some of the caves in MX have jumps so close you can bridge the gap with a double-ender. Take your eye off the line for a split second and you can suddenly be going into the cave on a completely different line than the one you think you're going out on ... :shocked2:

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[kensuf]

I like either properly marked T's or cut back jumps.

I tend to think that "Snap and Gap" jumps are deadly. IMHO, if you're going to close a jump you need to run your own line. Whenever I think about using a snap and gap, the Calimba / Sac Actun multiple fatality raises the hair on the back of my neck.

 

[nakatomi]

So what are the opinions on a T junction compared to a Jump/Gap application?

Here is my opinion. I think everything safe to dive into in backmount (for say at least 100') should be T'ed. The T should be made in such a fashion that it is of course marked with an arrow (or arrows, depending) and not hidden behind a feature or in the silt on the floor or the ceiling.

All jumps into passages not intended for the general cave diving public, should be cut back so the line is not visible from other lines nearby.

 

[rongoodman]

I like either properly marked T's or cut back jumps.

I tend to think that "Snap and Gap" jumps are deadly. IMHO, if you're going to close a jump you need to run your own line. Whenever I think about using a snap and gap, the Calimba / Sac Actun multiple fatality raises the hair on the back of my neck.

As I recall in that incident, though, they ignored their own cookie on a different intersection and went the wrong way before they had even returned the the snap and gap. When I was there a couple of years ago, it was gone anyway.

 

[karstdvr]

On an unrelated note to the above, because this discussion has gained a lot of interest and sparked many side discussions, I had a quick chat with Kelly Jessop last night and was very disappointed with his response. Per what I assume to be most people on this thread, I received an email from the NSS this week indicating that it was time to vote for the 4 open board positions. Knowing that the CDS board elections were supposed to be right around the corner I hopped on the website and saw that ballots were supposed to be snail mailed on 03/07/15 and Kelly was in charge of the whole thing. Sent him a quick message on Facebook asking if there was a delay in the ballots and if/when I could expect to see mine as I was very interested in who was running for Training Director, Chairman, and one of the Program Directors. His response was that there were only 4 total nominations for the 3 positions, and when asked for platform statements the 1 person who was not an incumbent backed out, so all 3 are automatically re-elected for the next term. This was determined on or around February 21st and the board was informed, but there were no formal announcements via email, Scubaboard, CDF, or even the NSSCDS main page. I understand that the election process is not "officially" over per the initial timeline, but when they decided not to send out ballots, they should have indicated on the website why the ballots were not being sent. This represents two problems to me, one is the lack of communication from the CDS board because they have known about this for well over a month, as well as a lack of interest from this community.
.

Between you and Dan you sum it up pretty good. I give the CDS board a tellers report per Robert's Roles of Order, but in no way am I charged with announcing the results, that is left to the board. Lack of reporting to the membership may have been an oversite,and since many board members don't read these forums, a well placed email may be appropriate. I appreciate you bringing this up. Thank you.

 

[GDI]

Here is my opinion. I think everything safe to dive into in backmount (for say at least 100') should be T'ed. The T should be made in such a fashion that it is of course marked with an arrow (or arrows, depending) and not hidden behind a feature or in the silt on the floor or the ceiling.

All jumps into passages not intended to the general cave diving public, should be cut back so the line is not visible from other lines nearby.

How do you define the "not intended to the general cave diving public"​ ?

 

[nakatomi]

How do you define the "not intended to the general cave diving public"​ ?

Sorry for the typo, I meant to say "intended for"

I believe it should be defined the same way as it is being done now. The original explorer cuts the jump way back, or the line committee decides to do it.
Either of them possibly thinking that the average (or new) cave diver may run into issues in this passage, or cause issues to the passage.

 

[tbone1004]

Between you and Dan you sum it up pretty good. I give the CDS board a tellers report per Robert's Roles of Order, but in no way am I charged with announcing the results, that is left to the board. Lack of reporting to the membership may have been an oversite,and since many board members don't read these forums, a well placed email may be appropriate. I appreciate you bringing this up. Thank you.

should they not make it a point to read these forums though? We elect them to help lead the people, and this is where the people are talking. Granted on the CDS side Forrest is heavily involved with the CDF so not much goes through the cracks with him, and Jim has been very active as well. NACD side has Neto on here primarily very rarely on CDF anymore, but MAG is on there a decent amount, but unless you pay attention to the guys on the board, with the exception of Neto due to his posting on here, Forrest because everyone knows who he is and has for the last 40 some odd years, and Jim through various reasons, very few people have any idea who any of the other board members are and I think that is part of the problem, we don't see them diving often, and they aren't making themselves known, I understand there are limitations to what they can post because they are board members, but they can poke their heads in every once in a while and let us know they are actually listening on a day to day basis instead of only when formal motions are brought up.