Cave Training and Etiquette Real or Imaginary?

[LiteHedded]

John, some people like to admit to everyone's problem but their own. It's nothing but blame shifting. The divers blame the agencies for not acting on reports that they haven't even made. If you're pointing a finger at anyone, you should realize that three are pointing right back at you. That includes both you and me and everyone reading and responding in this thread. No rain drop feels responsible for the flood. Don't get pissed if someone says you can do a better job. Figure out how you can do it better rather then just get bitter. If you're going to level criticism, don't imagine that you're immune from it. I'm sure not.

now that you're done finger pointing go away. i'm sure there's a keys boat with your name on it.

meanwhile, GDI is here making a solid effort to improve on things with his own agency. (it may very well be the only one left in a few months) and you're just diluting the thread with nonsense.

 

[karstdvr]

John, some people like to admit to everyone's problem but their own. It's nothing but blame shifting. The divers blame the agencies for not acting on reports that they haven't even made. If you're pointing a finger at anyone, you should realize that three are pointing right back at you. That includes both you and me and everyone reading and responding in this thread. No rain drop feels responsible for the flood. Don't get pissed if someone says you can do a better job. Figure out how you can do it better rather then just get bitter. If you're going to level criticism, don't imagine that you're immune from it. I'm sure not.

This goes back to post #9. Regardless if you had poor instruction or top-notch,ultimately the diver has to take personal responsibility. If you can't traverse a passage without kicking up silt, touching rocks, floating up to the ceiling etc etc then you don't belong in the cave. Get out and do what is necessary to attain your goal-remedial instruction, mentoring, diving in open water until problems resolved, sell all gear on ebay.....

 

[Pavao]

Every time we read a thread about divers skill quality, there's always that line of comments on where virtually everyone agrees on; It's not the agency, it's the instructor, ah, except GUE!

Someone is doing something right. There's the saying, learn from other's mistakes. What is the opposite of that?

I know my diver education money goes to GUE instructors, it's an easy decision, the other agencies makes it easy by not offering competition. And GUE training is expensive, very expensive, I do wish there were comparable quality training on an agency level with a more affordable price.


My suggestion to fixing the issue first raised in this thread, is not a better reporting system of standards being broken, do the best to avoid them getting broken in the first place!

 

[ucfdiver]

sigh.

 

[Omisson]

Cave diving always stirs such passions.... It's axing how bitter and personal things get in a community so small-

Wanted to say I was glad to see NACD and CDS representatives taking the criticisms in stride. Keep working together and people won't know what to bitch about!

 

[kensuf]

Wanted to say I was glad to see NACD and CDS representatives taking the criticisms in stride. Keep working together and people won't know what to bitch about!

I just felt this needed to be restated again.

There are some problems in cave diver training. I think any of us that have gone diving at Ginnie, Peacock, etc all see this. The problems didn't happen over night. Sadly, I believe they won't be fixed over night either. But the first step to solving the problem is acknowledging and discussing it, then understanding how it happened to begin with, and then figuring out what steps can be taken to fix it and prevent it from happening again.

I have lots of respect for Rick and Jim for being involved in this discussion.

Hopefully in a year everything will be better.

 

[divad]

Also, I disagree with you that I'm not doing anything. I try my best to refer everyone to GUE for training, or Heather Armstrong, Dan Patterson, Ken Charlesworth, or other instructors who I feel exceed the agency norms.

Thanks.

 

[TSandM]

I honestly think it's wonderful that people who hold responsible positions in cave diving agencies are TALKING, and talking about how to improve things. Sitting here and whining and denigrating their intentions and efforts is awful . . . even if you don't think anything will change, you have someone here talking about how to make changes. Someone who is willing to be a part of a forum of people from different agencies, to talk about quality control and improvement. Hooray for Jim and Rick!

 

[Nirvana]

I would like to add my lowly voice to those of TSandM, Kensuf and Omission in thanking Rick Murcar and Jim Wyatt for their willingness to rethink existing procedures and work towards bettering the quality of cave instruction and of cave divers' ability in general.

In this regard, I believe that the "reporting system" should have a secondary role. Reporting fosters animosity between the parties involved. It is a complicated procedure, demanding physical evidence, witnesses' reports, right of defense for the "accused" instructor, and so on. It also requires a clear breach of pre-established standards. All in all, it is a system that should be reserved for very grave faults, specially those that put students in immediate and serious danger.

For general quality control and systematic improvement of instruction, less contentious methods appear much more productive. As has been suggested, all cave agencies could adopt periodic peer review of instructors or periodic retraining of instructors. There could also be a mandatory class review for students, as GUE seems to impose. The bar to become a cave instructor should be set high, as some agencies appear to already do.

In general terms, I believe that an agency initiative would be more successful if it is viewed as an attempt to better qualify its instructors and push for higher standards. Relying on and demanding more reports to improve the quality of the agency can look like an attempt to categorize people as "good instructors" and "bad instructors". As much as there may be people that should not be instructing, this can start to look like a witch hunt.

 

[GDI]

The intent of this thread is to discuss the changes needed in the cave diving community. I can tell you that a few agencies have reps that are in contact with me regarding the content of this thread, some like GUE have even responded directly, thank you to those who have provided constructive comments. Jim and I have been talking and our respective agencies are working together. This is long overdue.

I am further seeking the participation of those who normally do not get on the chat boards, they, a few, are coming aboard, others who have incredibly busy schedules have offered to comment on an "as asked basis" in matters related to training and other topic

If you think this isn't working then you may be part of the systemic problem. I have already began to action some of the suggestions as a result of discussions here. It will be a long haul and it will take the agencies to act, I think it best if we do so collectively.

Personal attacks on individuals, bad mouthing agencies will achieve nothing but demonstrate more of the same old BS. I have no time for that sort of politics, neither do you. As cave diving enters a new era of a mainstream diving discipline It can no longer afford to have such a mindset. Leave your egos and your 60 psi chest poking fingers out of this discussion. instead bring your "A" game.

To all cave training agencies I welcome your input. To all cave divers new and old I welcome your input. yes a new set of eyes and ears can add much to a old problem. Old in that we have come to ignore it and/or become complacent to it. To the instructors consider yourself as the first impression, the first point of contact of an agency to a new potential cave/rn diver. How professional is it if you hypocritically insult an individual or organization here on-line and say something different in person? Especially if stated without proof of fact.

Instead I encourage you to take notes, record lessons learned, share these experiences as a group with your agency and with your fellow cave instructors regardless of agency affiliation. Each class, each student is different and a set of core skills and expectations of what it should take to become - to earn the certification Cave Diver should be a sense of common pride amongst those who have earned it.

It starts with you.