Cave Training and Etiquette Real or Imaginary?

[PfcAJ]

So who was the instructor?

 

[Redshift]

So who was the instructor?

I think it has come to that point. When there is evidence and the proper channels have been used and nothing happened, there should be a public disclosure of the facts, people and agency involved.

I think things will only change when the value of some agencies and instructors drops and they lose customers. And by value I mean not only the teaching quality, because we've seen that some people may not care, if they still get the card, but also the acceptance by others of divers from those agencies / instructors. When they start being refused access to certain sites, courses or even as buddies, maybe there will be enough pressure on the agencies to get their act together.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

. I'm fairly convinced that a "Yelp" type review location would be a good idea. Not perfect as there'd be some drama....but better than this "wink-wink, hint-hint" passive-aggressive crap. FAR better than agencies claiming they'll do things.

Lets do it -- I do not have much experience with YELP, but it seems like we setup a "business" called "cave diver training" and advertise it on the forums.

Outing names here could result in scubaboard being sued by someone who was named as a bad instructor. Yelp seems to be about "opinions" and "experiences".

There will of course be people posting negative comments because of personal agendas against individual cave instructors that they simply don't like or have "heard" they are dangerous.

Vic: One of the things we at the CDS require is "Due Process". Let me cite an example.

In May of 2013 the CDS received a complaint against one of our instructors - the complaint alleged that the instructor had taken intro to cave students into Lower Orange Grove, the deep part which would be a gross standards violation. My initial reaction was WOW we cannot allow this person to teach for us. After we looked at it closer we had no eye witnesses, we had no students who would verify that this happened. All we had was hearsay from a person who seems to have a personal vendetta going on....

Further investigation by the training committee discovered a personal/business disagreement between the guy who sent us the complaint and the guy he was complaining about. The issue then became very difficult for us to deal with because there was no proof -- there was no one telling us we saw that, or we were the students.

We informed the complainant that if he could give us the names of the students we would interview them and that if what they told us constituted a standards violation then we would act swiftly and definitively to remove the offending instructor from the ranks. He was never able to provide us with those names

Fast forward to March 2015, a few weeks ago I was called by another cave diver training agency who had recently received the exact same report from the exact same complainant, almost two years later. They too asked for names and have not been provided with names.

If we have a YELP account for this you will see reviews like the one above where unsubstantiated rumors and hearsay would potentially permeate the listings. People with personal agendas will post lies for their own personal reasons.

It would of course be up to the owner of Scubaboard if such a thread could exist on here.

Now: Would it be appropriate for me to identify the instructor who was accused given the set of circumstances described above?

 

[GDI]

Pete, I tried holding my tongue here....but now I have to say: I did all of this. Multiple times, for multiple agencies. Heck, once I had five separate incidents of CLEARLY standards-breaking dives being conducted on one instructor. Literally, you can go down the line of all of these points and I had every duck imaginable in a row. Still, nothing happened. I had dates, instructor AND student names, and I EVEN HAD VIDEO of a few events. Nothing ever came of it. I'm fairly convinced that a "Yelp" type review location would be a good idea. Not perfect as there'd be some drama....but better than this "wink-wink, hint-hint" passive-aggressive crap. FAR better than agencies claiming they'll do things.

I'm not talking about "Holy crap, he was sculling!" type stuff....I mean thirds and two jumps during Cavern/Intro being done with the student in LP50s and there being no gas matching AND not teaching gas matching. I'm talking about 4 dives in one day with no confined water work for deco training. I'm talking about simulating O2 deco with pure air on a Tec50 course...and never coming close to the minimum depth requirements. I'm talking about a DMC taking a class of 5 freshly-minted OW students on a "deep dive" by burying their PDC until it said 61ft. I'm talking about a DM taking a dozen people 250ft into a CAVE with 3 lights amongst the entire bunch. I'm talking about Full Cave cards being issued by instructors that are buddies with an instructor candidate. I saw a NAUI Cave 1 course finish the DAY OF a Cave 2 course starting....for the same student. I'm talking about some pretty serious violations.....not that someone went boat diving with the "Boat Diving Specialty." Nothing happened. I have zero faith in the system.

Victorzamora, this is the stuff that needs to stop. Violations and the lack or willingness to report them.

Let me make this clear to the cave world at least from a NACD QA stance. New sheriff in town I am not head hunting nor the scuba police but, I expect the NACD TO BE HELD TO HIGHEST OF STANDARDS as guided by S&P. You can PM me all the facts you have on these above mentioned incidents. I want the instructor's name, Is he a NACD instructor?, The time, dates and place of the incident, witnesses, contact information. A brief description of the violation or violations

You will be expected to support your claim fully and willfully working with the NACD training committee. If you and your witnesses fail to do so then such a claim is most likely to fall short of any further administrative action.

You'll see Capt Jim Wyatt and I agree on the due process and procedures to be used for this sort of thing.

Your call!

 

[The Chairman]

Outing names here could result in scubaboard being sued by someone who was named as a bad instructor. //SNIP// It would of course be up to the owner of Scubaboard if such a thread could exist on here.

Incidents and poor reviews are allowed here on SB. Threads that are determined to be motivated by agendas, vendettas or simple malice can and will be removed. We will give the benefit of the doubt to the person or dive shop being maligned. Keeping the thread to the facts and free of threats or unnecessary vituperative comments will go a long way to it staying up.

ScubaBoard is protected by several laws protecting it as a medium for the exchange of ideas. That may not stop someone from suing us, but it will stop them from winning. As she shall not be named will attest, attacking your customer base is not a very good business model.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Incidents and poor reviews are allowed here on SB. Threads that are determined to be motivated by agendas, vendettas or simple malice can and will be removed. We will give the benefit of the doubt to the person or dive shop being maligned. Keeping the thread to the facts and free of threats or unnecessary vituperative comments will go a long way to it staying up.

ScubaBoard is protected by several laws protecting it as a medium for the exchange of ideas. That may not stop someone from suing us, but it will stop them from winning. As she shall not be named will attest, attacking your customer base is not a very good business model.

So....lets explore this. A sub-forum for anyone to see where individual cave instructors can be bashed if someone has the cajones to do it.

 

[victorzamora]

if someone has the cajones to do it.

This, to me, is the biggest problem. There's a lot of politics involved and a lot of powerful names to be pissed off. I'm sure you don't remember, but you and I had this same discussion like 18 months ago. I had instructor and student names, instructor candidate names, e-mails confirming, dates, places, video, etc. One step that was required was for me to put my name out publicly and attach it to the complaint. I backed off because of fear of retribution....and one very clear threat. I know I sound like a coward, but it's why I send PMs to people that ask.

---------- Post added March 19th, 2015 at 01:24 PM ----------

Victorzamora, this is the stuff that needs to stop. Violations and the lack or willingness to report them.

Let me make this clear to the cave world at least from a NACD QA stance. New sheriff in town I am not head hunting nor the scuba police but, I expect the NACD TO BE HELD TO HIGHEST OF STANDARDS as guided by S&P. You can PM me all the facts you have on these above mentioned incidents. I want the instructor's name, Is he a NACD instructor?, The time, dates and place of the incident, witnesses, contact information. A brief description of the violation or violations

You will be expected to support your claim fully and willfully working with the NACD training committee. If you and your witnesses fail to do so then such a claim is most likely to fall short of any further administrative action.

You'll see Capt Jim Wyatt and I agree on the due process and procedures to be used for this sort of thing.

Your call!

The instructor was not and is not an NACD instructor. I am sending you a PM, though.

 

[boulderjohn]

Outing names here could result in scubaboard being sued by someone who was named as a bad instructor. Yelp seems to be about "opinions" and "experiences".

Incidents and poor reviews are allowed here on SB. Threads that are determined to be motivated by agendas, vendettas or simple malice can and will be removed. We will give the benefit of the doubt to the person or dive shop being maligned. Keeping the thread to the facts and free of threats or unnecessary vituperative comments will go a long way to it staying up.

ScubaBoard is protected by several laws protecting it as a medium for the exchange of ideas. That may not stop someone from suing us, but it will stop them from winning. As she shall not be named will attest, attacking your customer base is not a very good business model.

While ScubaBoard does have protections, that does not mean the person making the post has that kind of protection. When ScubaBoard was sued, as I understand it, a key part of the suit was the contention that ScubaBoard had somehow controlled the posts of the individuals who had participated. The suit included the posters and demanded that ScubaBoard reveal their true identities so that they could be included by name.

I personally would be very hesitant to out someone by name on this or any other forum. Perhaps the forum will be immune from some sort of defamation of character suit, but there is a good chance I could be named. Unlike many people in the other suit, my name is on my posts. No law suit will be needed to figure out who I am.

The IUCRR has stopped publishing incident reports. In a thread in CDF, they explained that they had stopped doing so on advice of counsel--fear of a lawsuit.

In criminal cases, the police are not supposed to reveal that they are investigating someone unless the investigation is already public. If an instructor is doing something wrong enough to deserve action from the agency, then the agency should be allowed to conduct an investigation in private. A friend of mine was investigated after a student survey indicated a standards violation. The investigation showed conclusively that the student's memory was faulty and no standards violation had occurred. It happens.

 

[The Chairman]

So....lets explore this. A sub-forum for anyone to see where individual cave instructors can be bashed if someone has the cajones to do it.

Bashing will never be allowed. Bashing is an unprovoked and/or unsubstantiated physical or verbal abuse of an individual or group. By it's very nature it's malicious in nature and we won't stand for it.

However, our already existent Cave Diving Forum, is a perfect place for legitimate complaints and class reviews, positive or negative. Threads are never removed simply because they are negative. But, and I repeat myself here, malicious attacks which in include vendettas, will not be tolerated and the thread may very well be removed. You aren't allowed to attack someone just because you don't like them. Even if you don't like them a lot!

 

[The Chairman]

While ScubaBoard does have protections, that does not mean the person making the post has that kind of protection.

Be responsible in what you post. While the truth is the ultimate defense in a libel suit, you can be held liable for any conjectures or conclusions you might make.

When ScubaBoard was sued, as I understand it, a key part of the suit was the contention that ScubaBoard had somehow controlled the posts of the individuals who had participated. The suit included the posters and demanded that ScubaBoard reveal their true identities so that they could be included by name.

It was designed to impact me financially and not much else. They did contend that the posters were agents of SB, but that was more a fishing expedition. They did want names and not only would I not give those to them, but I could not.