Cave Graffiti

[Johnny Richards]

I have a hard time believing that someone who has invested the time and money in cave training would do so without having developed respect for the environment.

Have you dove Devil's lately?

Johnny

 

[Daedalus]

Have you dove Devil's lately?

Johnny

Yes, and what I see is evidence of negligence and recklessness by a few divers. When a system has as much traffic in it as Devils the 10% who are causing damage due to technique issues are going to make it look much worse than in a cave that has less traffic. I have not however seen much intentional graffiti, apart from the bone room incident a while ago.

 

[Benthic]

Florida law recognizes this activity as a felony offense

<snip>

Johnny

I was not aware of this. Thanks for the info Johnny.

Brian

 

[Rick Murchison]

I think the British CDG get it right. You have to be a dry caver first,this is where you really develop a cave aesthetic,before you can cave dive. Perhaps we'd see less of this if dry caving experience and affiliation in a grotto was necessary before seeking cave diving training. Cave diving has become an extension of diving,not caving. Just my 2 bar worth.

No, you do not have to be a dry caver to have a fully developed "cave aesthetic." All you have to have is a shred of common decency. I know that I signed something along the way - I think it was in the CDS cavern course - that said, essentially, "I won't do any damage or leave any graffiti in caves."
I see far more graffiti in dry caves than in flooded ones.
We have plenty of laws and restrictions.
We don't need any new ones.
--
Lurch's First Law of Legislation says:
"When contemplating a new law, rule or regulation, ask not what it can do for you, or for society, or for the whole world in the hands of the honorable; ask what it can do to you in the hands of the dishonorable."
--
No, we don't need any more restrictions to cave diving, just better screening with the ones we already have.
Rick

 

[Daedalus]

§ 810.13. Cave vandalism and related offenses


(1) DEFINITIONS. --As used in this act:

(a) "Cave" means any void, cavity, recess, or system of interconnecting passages which naturally occurs beneath the surface of the earth or within a cliff or ledge, including natural subsurface water and drainage systems but not including any mine, tunnel, aqueduct, or other manmade excavation, and which is large enough to permit a person to enter. The word "cave" includes any cavern, natural pit, or sinkhole which is an extension of an entrance to a cave.

(b) "Cave life" means any life form which is indigenous to a cave or to a cave ecosystem.

(c) "Gate" means any structure or device located to limit or prohibit access or entry to a cave.

(d) "Owner" means a person who owns title to land where a cave is located, including a person who holds a leasehold estate in such land; the state or any of its agencies, departments, boards, bureaus, commissions, or authorities; or any county, municipality, or other political subdivision of the state.

(e) "Person" means any individual, partnership, firm, association, trust, corporation, or other legal entity.

(f) "Sinkhole" means a closed topographic depression or basin, generally draining underground, including, but not restricted to, a doline, limesink, or sink.

(g) "Speleogen" means an erosional feature of a cave boundary, including, but not restricted to, anastomoses, scallops, rills, flutes, spongework, or pendants.

(h) "Speleothem" means a natural mineral formation or deposit occurring in a cave, including, but not restricted to, a stalagmite, stalactite, helictite, anthodite, gypsum flower, gypsum needle, angel hair, soda straw, drapery, bacon, cave pearl, popcorn (coral), rimstone dam, column, or flowstone. Speleothems are commonly composed of calcite, epsomite, gypsum, aragonite, celestite, or other similar minerals.

(2) VANDALISM. --It is unlawful for any person, without the prior written permission of the owner, to:

(a) Break, break off, crack, carve upon, write upon, burn, mark upon, remove, or in any manner destroy, disturb, deface, mar, or harm the surfaces of any cave or any natural material which may be found therein, whether attached or broken, including speleothems, speleogens, or sedimentary deposits. This paragraph does not prohibit minimal disturbance or removal for scientific inquiry.

(b) Break, force, tamper with, or otherwise disturb a lock, gate, door, or other obstruction designed to control or prevent access to a cave, even though entrance thereto may not be gained.

(c) Remove, deface, or tamper with a sign stating that a cave is posted or citing provisions of this act.

(3) CAVE LIFE. --It is unlawful to remove, kill, harm, or otherwise disturb any naturally occurring organism within a cave, except for safety or health reasons. The provisions of this subsection do not prohibit minimal disturbance or removal of organisms for scientific inquiry.

(4) POLLUTION AND LITTERING. --It is unlawful to store in a cave any chemical or other material which may be detrimental or hazardous to the cave, to the mineral deposits therein, to the cave life therein, to the waters of the state, or to persons using such cave for any purposes. It is also unlawful to dump, litter, dispose of, or otherwise place any refuse, garbage, dead animal, sewage, trash, or other similar waste materials in a cave. This subsection shall not apply to activity which is regulated pursuant to s. 373.106, regarding the intentional introduction of water into an underground formation, or chapter 377, regarding the injection of fluids into subsurface formations in connection with oil or gas operations.

(5) SALE OF SPELEOTHEMS. --It is unlawful for any person to sell or offer for sale any speleothems in this state or to transport them for sale outside this state.

(6) PENALTIES. --Any person who violates subsection (2), subsection (3), subsection (4), or subsection (5) is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

Bolded are the pertinent parts of the statute. Maybe there should be posted signs as popular dive sites that cave vandalism is illegal and a first degree misdemeanor (felony?) and the punishments?

 

[Dive-aholic]

I do not think that the graffiti is being done by cave divers, but by open water divers going diving in caves. Anyone can buy a reel and a light and go into the cave - they might even make it back out again. Look at any given spring frequented by open water divers and you will see graffiti in the cavern zone but it stops as soon as you get into the cave zone.

The kind of person who leaves graffiti on a dive site is the same kind of moron who is exceeding their training and feel like they have to leave a marker to their "accomplishment". I have a hard time believing that someone who has invested the time and money in cave training would do so without having developed respect for the environment.

The Bone Room

 

[karstdvr]

Didn't say you have to be a dry caver first,but there is a different process that goes into the dry caver when they have affiliation with a grotto. A cave diver can develop a cave aesthetic,and if fact it is a necessity inorder to keep future access.

 

[karstdvr]

I see far more graffiti in dry caves than in flooded ones.

Easier for the average person to access thses caves

No, we don't need any more restrictions to cave diving, just better screening with the ones we already have.
Rick

The fact we talk about it on the internet things like graffiti,cave damage,vandalsim will cause restricitions. There are a lot of people who read our posts in the public sector,and their opinions of us is interesting. When wear and tear is found to excessive in any state park, controlling access is the way to handle it,just hasn't found it s way to cave diving yet

 

[GDI]

Maybe we just need to thin down the numbers of those getting certified. Hold the cave divers to a even higher standard?

All the caves are beginning to show this type of stuff

 

[Rick Murchison]

Easier for the average person to access thses caves

And your point is? It only takes one.
My point is that layering a whole bunch of extra BS requirements on real cave divers just punishes the innocent. Any jerk that'll deface a cave is still a jerk that'll deface a cave.
Rick