Cave diving Cert Agencies

[LiteHedded]

Jim,

I will say this. Having dove with students trained at various levels by Andrew Georgitsis, Mark Messersmith, Tyler Moon, Jarrod Jablonski, and David Rhea under GUE's curriculum, these students walk out of class on average with a much higher level of understanding of decompression procedures, gas planning, and basic skills than the average equivalents from other agencies. And by average I'm speaking strictly about the students I've been exposed to, which includes way more non GUE divers than GUE divers, so maybe I just got the cream of the crop... From this experience, realistically I would do a shake hands and go dive situation with a c2 diver from GUE, and I would not do the same without having mutual friends with other agencies. I'm not saying this because I have GUE training, I have none. I had a few experiences that made me wonder wtf, but after someone waived goodbye to me on deco and got out of the water, that was the end of my instabuddy days.

I think it's because other agencies are pushing students to the overhead (or maybe I'd be better saying they're not holding them back long enough?) by offering cavern as a substitution for an intro to tech course. I know that I was in no way prepared to get the most out of my course when I took it. Looking back, it makes much more sense to build fundamental skills in a confined environment like Blue Grotto, Troy Springs, Royal Springs, etc before going into the ballroom where a student is practicing new things with the flow frustrating them. This also gets students in "Full Cave" gear to eliminate the switching of gear between levels, and you don't have to spend 30 minutes discussing pro/cons of various configurations. Not to say that there's a single right way, but we're just saying that this system works for 7 mile 300ft deep cave traverses...and it will probly work for you, at least until you're done with your training. For me, it seems the more experience I get, the less I want to change.

Another thing I've noticed is that the majority of agencies don't seem to be enforcing standards. I'm aware of a recent NAUI Cave 1 course where the instructor's wife taught the course, and the instructor signed off on the student's Cave 1 card. This student has since dove with someone who was so appalled by the lack of skill that the buddy actually went to the instructor. Same instructor, different agency, but a student failed intro, and since the boyfriend was a cavern instructor, the boyfriend was instructed to do a basic skills checkout back home and let them know when her skills improved. What's scary, is this is one of the most active cave instructors out there right now.... Then you've got the NSS-CDS training director (chairman?) teaching a zero-to-hero course in sidemount, to students who have never dove sidemount at all before the course. Not to mention taking non full cave divers into upstream cow with no obvious repercussions. Then you've got the absolutely awful video of a course like this one (click) by a pretty well known instructor, two of them actually. The list of things go on and on, but the bottom line is that for whatever reason, standards are not being enforced. Even on TDS I've seen cavern classes advertised for just over $200 with materials...now if the instructor doesn't value his own time, what kind of effort do you think he puts into that class? Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't see me working very hard for $450 minus materials, tank fills, entry fees, and gas teaching 2 students.

Finally, and this really has nothing to do with the agency or instructors is that the GUE crowd seems to have more mentoring going on....at least for me, more were willing to help. When I wanted a bit more bottom time, even before full cave, I confronted Bryce and AJ and had them take me stage diving. AJ took me on a setup dive for him and Bryce so I got to carry a stage and get used to it. A week or two later, we met up after Bryce got off at EE and did a stage dive, with the logic and reasoning very well explained (there's nothing I'd do differently AFTER full cave than how I did it with them). When I wanted to start scootering, Bryce (who was mentored by JJ/Casey), once again spent several hours in Ginnie's spring run with me teaching me how to do basic skills. After purchasing a scooter, Stacey has done several dives to help me build experience, and is more than willing to offer critique along the way. This does seem to lead to students migrating to stage dives, deep dives, and scooter dives a whole lot faster, but the safety record is hard to argue...

This is all my opinion, I'm in no way trying to present it as fact. Just my own observations and conclusions. It's rather unfortunate and possibly unfair that many of the good agency instructors have to be thrown in the same pool. I'm convinced that there are equal quality instructors in all agencies, but for whatever reason, GUE seems to maintain the most consistency. I bet Lynne had a similar thought process when she posted what she did.

which instructor?

 

[LiteHedded]

Once again the alphabet soup may be confusing. I might agree in your class the degree of precision & execution you were expected to attain was higher with YOUR particular GUE instructor.

I think it is incorrect to state unequivocally that ALL GUE classes have a higher degree of precision & execution than ALL other cave agencies, or instructors.

It is the instructor, not the agency that makes the difference, IMHO.

i think I would tend to disagree with this.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I think out of all the really great cave divers out there, the minority come from GUE. Granted, the other agencies push out alot more divers. At that same end, the other agencies allow flexibility and refinement in their divers to dive whatever task at hand where GUE is pretty damned rigid on what they want as far as kit and protocol(which is fine for a 7 mile push at 300'(which others certainly could have done given the availability), but won't get you into the entrance of alot of places).

There are divers from every agency that suck.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Once again the alphabet soup may be confusing. I might agree in your class the degree of precision & execution you were expected to attain was higher with YOUR particular GUE instructor.

I think it is incorrect to state unequivocally that ALL GUE classes have a higher degree of precision & execution than ALL other cave agencies, or instructors.

It is the instructor, not the agency that makes the difference, IMHO.

i think I would tend to disagree with this.

Why?

I'm very new at cave diving, and perhaps don't have the perspective that some of y'all do ... but my perspective is that however good the instructor may be, if their teaching style isn't a good match for your learning style, you won't get much out of the class.

An instructor who pushes you hard may inspire one student to higher learning levels, while at the same time create an environment for another student that makes it impossible for them to achieve the objectives of the class.

I tend to agree with Jim's last comment ... there is no "one size fits all" approach to training ... especially cave training. There needs to be a level of communication and a feedback loop that runs both ways between student and instructor ... and no agency can, or does, provide that. You either "click" with an instructor or you don't ... and if you don't, you're better off with someone else ... regardless of agency affiliation.

It really is the instructor ... not the agency ... that matters ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[ianr33]

There are divers from every agency that suck.

Yep

SCUBA Locker Caving in Florida on Vimeo

 

[TSandM]

I tend to agree with Jim's last comment ... there is no "one size fits all" approach to training ... especially cave training. There needs to be a level of communication and a feedback loop that runs both ways between student and instructor ... and no agency can, or does, provide that. You either "click" with an instructor or you don't ... and if you don't, you're better off with someone else ... regardless of agency affiliation.

This is absolutely true. The best cave class I've taken was with a GUE instructor. And so was the worst.

 

[lamont]

I think out of all the really great cave divers out there, the minority come from GUE. Granted, the other agencies push out alot more divers. At that same end, the other agencies allow flexibility and refinement in their divers to dive whatever task at hand where GUE is pretty damned rigid on what they want as far as kit and protocol(which is fine for a 7 mile push at 300'(which others certainly could have done given the availability), but won't get you into the entrance of alot of places).

I'd argue that beginning cave divers shouldn't be going into those places and should build up experience in a bit larger cave before taking sidemount courses anyway.

And while GUE doesn't teach sidemount, you can take sidemount workshops from GUE instructors. Nothing stopping a GUE trained diver from taking a sidemount course from another agency either.

And while its often stated that "it isn't the agency, its the instructor", its also true that not all agencies are the same and have the same standards. And how can a non-cave diving diver evaluate a cave instructor before taking courses without any kind of reference? Everyone usually thinks their cave instructor is the best, but not everyone can be right.

 

[LiteHedded]

the instructor makes a difference, sure. but the agency most definitely matters. gue is head and shoulders above every other agency when it comes to what's expected.
they don't allow any of that single tank silliness, you have to be comfortable in a drysuit and doubles before they let you in a cave, the emphasis on TEAM is fantastic. to say nothing of the emphasis on FITNESS that you just don't get from any of the other agencies. the failures are more realistic, etc. I could go on and on.

maybe I've just seen enough terrible cave divers from these other agencies (and big name instructors that are supposedly fantastic) and become jaded.

if you leave gue out of the mix, you're right, the instructor is all that matters.

 

[ianr33]

you have to be comfortable in a drysuit and doubles before they let you in a cave,

Does the drysuit part apply to training in Mexico as well?

 

[Rhone Man]

The PADI cave teaching/course outline, exam and knowledge reviews are the most comprehensive training materials I have seen to date for cave diving. There are less than a dozen PADI cave diving instructors and all of them were NSS-CDS and/or NACD instructors prior to becoming PADI cave instructors too.

Sorry if I am being slow - PADI now has a full cave course? When did that come in?

I couldn't see anything on the website.