Cave diving Cert Agencies

[karstdvr]

The PADI cave teaching/course outline, exam and knowledge reviews are the most comprehensive training materials I have seen to date for cave diving. There are less than a dozen PADI cave diving instructors and all of them were NSS-CDS and/or NACD instructors prior to becoming PADI cave instructors too.

That is good to know. I remember at one time that the qualification to be a PADI cavern instructor,was intro certified,and made a certain number of experience dives.

 

[Dive-aholic]

20 experience dives. And there are still PADI cavern instructors teaching that haven't done a cave dive since they met those requirements. I've had a few potential students inquire about Intro/Basic who came from such instructors. When I tell them I require a pre-course evaluation, they go somewhere else. I'm not saying those instructors are necessarily bad, but the one I was able to get some background information on from another cave instructor did not receive good marks.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

20 experience dives. And there are still PADI cavern instructors teaching that haven't done a cave dive since they met those requirements.

I expect you could substitute other agency letters with PADI.

 

[ucfdiver]

I expect you could substitute other agency letters with PADI.

I was sitting here thinking the same thing. There's instructors certified to teach DPV with one of the well known cave agencies that don't even own their own DPV. There's also several instructors who only cave dive when teaching.

Making fun of PADI here is a great example of throwing rocks in a glass house.

 

[TSandM]

There are different limits on what you are allowed to do at different levels with different agencies, as well. For example, GUE Cave 1 permits one T, no restrictions, no jumps, but if I remember correctly, NAUI Cave 1 permits minor restrictions and one jump. I think, for some people, NAUI Cave 1 might cover about all they ever really want to (or ought to) do.

There are issues with one of the agencies (can't remember if it's NACD or NSS-CDS) with Intro divers in doubles, where you have to get a waiver from your instructor, and it expires.

So there are some differences among agencies.

I have done four and a half (dove as a buddy with someone taking a class) cave classes, from five different instructors, and three different agencies. I would say the biggest agency-specific difference that I saw was in the academics, which were far more developed, extensive and detailed with my GUE classes. In addition, the degree of precision and perfect execution we were expected to attain during the class was higher with GUE -- which is a good thing and a bad thing, since a lot of the time, it really isn't very possible to be perfect at the end of a five day class. But my three GUE classes were very different in character, the amount I learned, and how painful they were, among the three different instructors.

So it's too simplistic to say that it's the instructor, not the agency, but even within a highly regimented and standardized agency, the instructor makes a big difference. Find one whose style of teaching works for you. I would STRONGLY recommend that you have an opportunity to meet the person who will teach you, and talk to them, before you drop a lot of money on a class. What works for somebody else may not work for you at all.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

the degree of precision and perfect execution we were expected to attain during the class was higher with GUE .

Once again the alphabet soup may be confusing. I might agree in your class the degree of precision & execution you were expected to attain was higher with YOUR particular GUE instructor.

I think it is incorrect to state unequivocally that ALL GUE classes have a higher degree of precision & execution than ALL other cave agencies, or instructors.

It is the instructor, not the agency that makes the difference, IMHO.

 

[TSandM]

That may well be, Jim. The three GUE instructors I have worked with have all been more critical and demanding than the two other instructors I have worked with, and GUE instructors have this reputation. Whether it is universally true or not, I don't know; I have a series of three.

 

[ucfdiver]

Once again the alphabet soup may be confusing. I might agree in your class the degree of precision & execution you were expected to attain was higher with YOUR particular GUE instructor.

I think it is incorrect to state unequivocally that ALL GUE classes have a higher degree of precision & execution than ALL other cave agencies, or instructors.

It is the instructor, not the agency that makes the difference, IMHO.

Jim,

I will say this. Having dove with students trained at various levels by Andrew Georgitsis, Mark Messersmith, Tyler Moon, Jarrod Jablonski, and David Rhea under GUE's curriculum, these students walk out of class on average with a much higher level of understanding of decompression procedures, gas planning, and basic skills than the average equivalents from other agencies. And by average I'm speaking strictly about the students I've been exposed to, which includes way more non GUE divers than GUE divers, so maybe I just got the cream of the crop... From this experience, realistically I would do a shake hands and go dive situation with a c2 diver from GUE, and I would not do the same without having mutual friends with other agencies. I'm not saying this because I have GUE training, I have none. I had a few experiences that made me wonder wtf, but after someone waived goodbye to me on deco and got out of the water, that was the end of my instabuddy days.

I think it's because other agencies are pushing students to the overhead (or maybe I'd be better saying they're not holding them back long enough?) by offering cavern as a substitution for an intro to tech course. I know that I was in no way prepared to get the most out of my course when I took it. Looking back, it makes much more sense to build fundamental skills in a confined environment like Blue Grotto, Troy Springs, Royal Springs, etc before going into the ballroom where a student is practicing new things with the flow frustrating them. This also gets students in "Full Cave" gear to eliminate the switching of gear between levels, and you don't have to spend 30 minutes discussing pro/cons of various configurations. Not to say that there's a single right way, but we're just saying that this system works for 7 mile 300ft deep cave traverses...and it will probly work for you, at least until you're done with your training. For me, it seems the more experience I get, the less I want to change.

Another thing I've noticed is that the majority of agencies don't seem to be enforcing standards. I'm aware of a recent NAUI Cave 1 course where the instructor's wife taught the course, and the instructor signed off on the student's Cave 1 card. This student has since dove with someone who was so appalled by the lack of skill that the buddy actually went to the instructor. Same instructor, different agency, but a student failed intro, and since the boyfriend was a cavern instructor, the boyfriend was instructed to do a basic skills checkout back home and let them know when her skills improved. What's scary, is this is one of the most active cave instructors out there right now.... Then you've got the NSS-CDS training director (chairman?) teaching a zero-to-hero course in sidemount, to students who have never dove sidemount at all before the course. Not to mention taking non full cave divers into upstream cow with no obvious repercussions. Then you've got the absolutely awful video of a course like this one (click) by a pretty well known instructor, two of them actually. The list of things go on and on, but the bottom line is that for whatever reason, standards are not being enforced. Even on TDS I've seen cavern classes advertised for just over $200 with materials...now if the instructor doesn't value his own time, what kind of effort do you think he puts into that class? Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't see me working very hard for $450 minus materials, tank fills, entry fees, and gas teaching 2 students.

Finally, and this really has nothing to do with the agency or instructors is that the GUE crowd seems to have more mentoring going on....at least for me, more were willing to help. When I wanted a bit more bottom time, even before full cave, I confronted Bryce and AJ and had them take me stage diving. AJ took me on a setup dive for him and Bryce so I got to carry a stage and get used to it. A week or two later, we met up after Bryce got off at EE and did a stage dive, with the logic and reasoning very well explained (there's nothing I'd do differently AFTER full cave than how I did it with them). When I wanted to start scootering, Bryce (who was mentored by JJ/Casey), once again spent several hours in Ginnie's spring run with me teaching me how to do basic skills. After purchasing a scooter, Stacey has done several dives to help me build experience, and is more than willing to offer critique along the way. This does seem to lead to students migrating to stage dives, deep dives, and scooter dives a whole lot faster, but the safety record is hard to argue...

This is all my opinion, I'm in no way trying to present it as fact. Just my own observations and conclusions. It's rather unfortunate and possibly unfair that many of the good agency instructors have to be thrown in the same pool. I'm convinced that there are equal quality instructors in all agencies, but for whatever reason, GUE seems to maintain the most consistency. I bet Lynne had a similar thought process when she posted what she did.

 

[rjack321]

UCF pretty much nailed it for me. While I don't agree with everything that GUE does or teaches (nor Andrew's agency UTD either), I find the students coming out of these programs have a much better understanding of deco, equipment, precision, their personal limits and overall thoughtfulness about overhead (rock or virtual) diving. I dive with alot of different people trained in different ways, but these programs consistently produce good divers that are easy to buddy with. I can only attribute it to openly published high standards and hand selected instructors with actual agency QA weeding out the occasional poor instructor instead of relying on word of mouth and student inquiry on who to avoid.

 

[Dive-aholic]

I was sitting here thinking the same thing. There's instructors certified to teach DPV with one of the well known cave agencies that don't even own their own DPV. There's also several instructors who only cave dive when teaching.

Making fun of PADI here is a great example of throwing rocks in a glass house.

I don't think anyone was making fun of PADI. Kelly state a fact about PADI's former requirements to be a cavern instructor. I replied with my own experiences. I know there are instructors that never see the inside of a cave unless they're teaching. But yet they still get students and their students think they're great because they don't know any better. I have even seen an instructor teaching a cave class and doing the lost line drill in the cavern zone! But at least most of the other agencies require some sort of internship to become a cavern instructor. AFAIK, PADI is the only agency that does not require an internship.