Cave diver drowns - Jackson Blue Springs, Florida

[berndo]

... what might have been done to prevented a simple mistake escalating into a tragedy.

I'm not sure how it would help to have any of you're questions answered. Whether or not you're going into a small (and possible) silty restriction is a judgement call. People have had accidents in tight restrictions before.
Unless you really know what you're doing you shouldn't try to get into really tight spaces, especially not when it's silty... that's what the - not new - lesson is but some people will still do it.

 

[LandonL]

I disagree. The sooner evidence and facts are gathered, the better. Time tends to have an effect on memory.

Yes, obviously gathered. Making jokes about it on an internet forum to demean the victim the day after has nothing to do with gathering facts or data. How is this disagreeing with anything I said?

Where did I say that evidence and facts shouldn't be gathered asap? Your comment as a response to mine makes no sense whatsoever.

Well, what you said verbatim was this.....

Claiming there is any extra value in to discussing accidents in these pseudo analysis threads the day after somebody has died, is BS and you know it.

If you can't see how my statement relates to yours then I guess I can rephrase it to be more direct/obvious. What we are 'discussing' about 'accidents' in these 'pseudo analysis threads' is typically the available facts and evidence. 'Discussing accidents' here is how we learn from them, so no, it is not BS.

The point of these threads are to learn from the mistakes of others to make us better divers.

You seem to imply above that it be gathered and sequestered, but not be discussed? What is the use of that for the community as a whole?

 

[berndo]

You seem to imply above that it be gathered and sequestered, but not be discussed?

Why do you think I put 'the day after' in bolt?

I'm not against discussing accidents and there should be reports to remind us of the lessons we already know. What I'm against is this gathering of online voltures the minute there is news about an accident and these flippant comments about the victim. Can we let the recovery divers and friends at least have some time before the rumour mill gets up to speed?

'Discussing accidents' here is how we learn from them, so no, it is not BS.

Anyone that actually wants to learn from accidents they can spend hours upon hours reading through countless accident reports that have already been published. It's not that we don't have tons and tons of information about accidents and how to avoid them.

 

[wgw04024]

Anyone that actually wants to learn from accidents they can spend hours upon hours reading through countless accident reports that have already been published. It's not that we don't have tons and tons of information about accidents and how to avoid them.

You must be mistaking this industry with the FAA.

This is hands down the best we got. We aren't inviting anyone here. Also, people who shouldn't be here, need to go out of their way to find it.

 

[berndo]

You must be mistaking this industry with the FAA.

This is hands down the best we got. We aren't inviting anyone here. Also, people who shouldn't be here, need to go out of their way to find it.

Are you cave diving? Mostly non-cave divers posting about stuff they know nothing about on an online forum is certainly not the 'best we have'. Might be great for your entertainment but it's not very helpful.
Accident reports are helpful as reminders for trained cave divers and they would know how to find them.

 

[The Chairman]

To recap what I've learned about the accident...
Ambition, narcosis, and spatial distortion all played a role in this accident. It's a known challenge in that cave, so it's cool to do, but it's really hard to comprehend just how small an opening is when water is magnifying it, especially if you're a bit narced. As one of the participants described it in a DM, we all need to develop "cave whiskers" so that we know what's safe and what's not. Neither the rebreather nor the buddy seem to have contributed to this accident.

We've also seen how many peeps react to some of the blunt discussions cavers have with each other. Some need to tone it down on a public forum, while others need to be less sensitive. In addition, some feel the need to discuss things quickly, while others want to delay that. Perhaps the latter should avoid such threads until after shiva has passed? There's no need to place your religious or emotional restrictions on others. It's always good to remind yourself, that we all grieve differently. What works for you is anathema to another. There's no need to require others to honor your traditions. Just be true to yourself.

 

[stuartv]

I’m genuinely asking…how long should we wait?

I think the answer to this is pretty simple.

If you wouldn't say it directly in person to the face of the survivor, then it's too soon.

If you would say to the survivor, in person, to their face, 2 days after the accident, "kind of ironic, considering your job title", or "your buddy had a Winnie the Pooh moment", well, then, you do you. But, I would advise against doing so within my earshot.

Dissect the accident all you want. Just remember this is a public forum. The survivor and surviving friends and family are very likely going to see what is posted here. Have at least a shred of common decency and don't post anything that you would not say in person in front of them.

From what I've read (which is all of this thread), about 95% of what has been posted has done NOTHING to increase the safety of the community at large.

 

[Dominick Gheesling]

I remember that one time I went on the internet and everything just went exactly the way I wanted and I was given everything i thought that i deserved through the mere click of a button and the actual, physical world transformed itself to everything I thought that I was entitled to instantaneously...

 

[tbone1004]

I think the answer to this is pretty simple.

If you wouldn't say it directly in person to the face of the survivor, then it's too soon.

If you would say to the survivor, in person, to their face, 2 days after the accident, "kind of ironic, considering your job title", or "your buddy had a Winnie the Pooh moment", well, then, you do you. But, I would advise against doing so within my earshot.

Dissect the accident all you want. Just remember this is a public forum. The survivor and surviving friends and family are very likely going to see what is posted here. Have at least a shred of common decency and don't post anything that you would not say in person in front of them.

From what I've read (which is all of this thread), about 95% of what has been posted has done NOTHING to increase the safety of the community at large.

so to answer @Robert H. Diver 's question, when is ok to say that to their face within your earshot? Strategic omission of the full quote where I said "the unfortunate irony" which paints picture closer to "wow this is not what I would have expected so something must have gone seriously sideways" vs "kind of ironic" which certainly makes it seem quite derogatory.

 

[Manatee Diver]

It is nice to know who are talking to, the Florida cave community isn't that large.