Cave diver drowns - Jackson Blue Springs, Florida

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I have heard shop owners say I don't care as long as they have a fat wallet.
Have you really? I've only been doing this a few years, since 1969, and I've never met a shop owner say anything like this. Moreover, I've heard a surprising number of instructors talk people out of caving and rebreathers.

I get it. We all want someone to blame other than the diver. He was not a bad diver, but he erred at least once. There's simply no need to vilify anyone, any shop, or any agency over this tragedy.

If you don't see how it's disrespectful to make winnie the pooh jokes
That was insensitive at best. At least, I cringed when I read it, but they were trying to make a point, not be disrespectful. There are emotions raging on both sides here.
 
Chris, from what I have seen the main reason people justify going to the Sidewinder is that they don't need stages. I have seen people at the stroke arrow in JB with lp50's and no stages. I have had people tell me that if they have to take stages then why bother with the rebreather. As someone who has had a few close calls such as being on the backside of a nasty restriction with no line because my "buddy" cut the wrong line. Knowing that I had multiple stages and lp 120's to get me out was a calming thought. If your breather goes tits up. You are going to be stressed. Having to worry about bailout adds to that stress. But hey it's all good because someone made a $$ selling some cool gear to someone who just wanted to be like the cool kids and carry less bailout. It makes absolutely no sense to me and continuing to condone this mindset is the very definition of negligence. Instructors who preach safety then brag about doing dives way over the scrubber limit, not carrying proper bailout etc should be ostracized. I am suprised there haven't been more fatalities on the Sidewinder / rebreathers because of the lack of common sense.
i think you are seeing it w/ sidewinder because of where diving, much of what you said applies more broadly, and with many units. I worry about a CO2 breakthru more than otherwise not working regards BO gas because will be huffing like mad if don't catch it very early to bail out. The dual canisters if normally not pushing scrubber limits is a nice margin on having a breaktru as well. It's a big reason I dive the unit. Yeah, i tend to change sorb if expect next dive will push past 3 hrs of sorb use since filled, so if I have 1.5 and plan a 1.5 dive will do, plan a 2 hr dive and I dump the sorb.. some are more trusting than I am. If travelling past 1st T in JB will use my 85's , if really going back will dump a 80 or 2 along the way. I do enjoy swimming the unit before the T(or do queens and head back out) w/ 50's, it's easy swimming and frankly, I can make it out on them from there unless the amount of stuff goes wrong that it would be my day anyhow. With folks I don't know well in the water, I grap 85's even in front of cave swim dive..because.To the mindset regards adequate BO, there's a great deal of delusion among some, and also some know and don't care, being willing to assume the risk (like climbers that don't use ropes) but most annoying is those that haven't been taught enough to know that are copying what they see without knowing it's bad
 
I've been reading this thread since the day it was posted and I think we all have the right idea just wrong execution here. Scubaboard is a collective forum with divers of mixed experience, so I agree that discussions are almost always helpful. I do feel that often times commentors are missing the point. Yes, we should discuss and disect to best learn from each case as most diving related accidents are preventable. But don't put in your 2-cents if you don't have the experience in the subject matter or don't have anything constructive to say. In this case, since it was a cave accident there are a number of professionals tasked with the investigation and the report will be made public once that investigation is done. I don't think any of us here in this thread so far can say that we have investigation experience and I say that with confidence based on what I've been reading. Any comment here is purely speculative. Lots of us have family and friends that are not divers, so imagine them reading these comments and assuming the facts of the case without any prior knowledge. Imagine how upsetting that could be. I say we wait patiently for the final report before adding our opinions and until then just keep the family and the dive buddy in our prayers.
 
I get it. We all want someone to blame other than the diver. He was not a bad diver, but he erred at least once. There's simply no need to vilify anyone, any shop, or any agency over this tragedy.
That is how it appears, and I hope that the family understand that while it is sad that their son died, he decided to willingly participate in a high risk activity where participants know that the environment means that errors can often be fatal, and that he made such an error, and hopefully the family don't start lawsuits against the dive buddy, instructor etc.
 
If you don't see how it's disrespectful to make winnie the pooh jokes about somebody that died a day or a couple of days before, there is nothing I can tell you.

When did I mention that? Did you even read what I replied to? There was no mention of a “joke.” Try again Berndo.
 

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When did I mention that? Did you even read what I replied to? There was no mention of a “joke.” Try again Berndo.
Just have at it dude. Why even wait until the body is cold before you post your amazing insights.

That was insensitive at best.
It's not insensitive, it's vile. tbone seems to be very happy to get on his soapbox and even gets applause from some morons.

This isn't the first time either.
In another thread (or board) tbone wrote something to the effect of 'gloves off boys' after the name of the victim was published. Now this winnie pooh stuff... he seems to enjoy this.

Claiming there is any extra value in to discussing accidents in these pseudo analysis threads the day after somebody has died, is BS and you know it. It maybe good for clicks (as you seem the be the owner) and to satisfy the gawkers desire for another disaster story asap.
 
Once again, how long should one wait?
As long as basic facts are known like in this case then I don't see any need to wait any longer. In this case we know the basic facts - cave divers in a cave, one on a rebreather - who wedged himself into a restriction so badly that neither he nor his buddy could free him, and the buddy made the correct decision to leave the victim. There isn't a lot to speculate on as it is reasonably clear what the basic problem was.
 
As long as basic facts are known like in this case then I don't see any need to wait any longer. In this case we know the basic facts - cave divers in a cave, one on a rebreather - who wedged himself into a restriction so badly that neither he nor his buddy could free him, and the buddy made the correct decision to leave the victim. There isn't a lot to speculate on as it is reasonably clear what the basic problem was.
I was hoping for an answer from Berndo.
 
Recovering from a hip replacement, I’ve reread a lot of the dive classics. I think that getting very granular about accidents is one way for divers to somehow distance themselves from these events rather than to learn from the overarching themes.
Personally, a friend of mines husband died on the Oregon (wreck , 130 ft ccr). my husband also had a first degree relative pass or have a serious medical event on a dive.
1) preexisting conditions, exacerbated by the stress of the dive. most like an older man, heart issue, but could be other medical conditions that track with age and risk.
2) unpredictable events. Undeserved hit, IPE, etc. A young woman I know just got IPE in the Galapos. Fortunately she had a satellite phone and and while the DMs discounted her symptoms, she called DAN and took their advice. Her training for this live aboard and cool head saved her life. Some people would not have even made it to the surface, based on her reports. Even though she couldn’t breathe well, they forced her to do a safety stop.
3) people resistant to change when diving in a different environment than they are accustomed to. Could be an expert diver with a zillion dives that isn’t interested in modifying their set up or approach in a new environment as they are very comfort with the set up and method
these same people often discount advice and are unable or unwilling to take it from those who are experts In the new environment.
4) this can be extrapolated to the fact that they have initial success in new environment until they hit a wall.
5) physics does not relate to me because I am an expert and have done this before and survived. So many people get away with so much for so long that they continue to take chances.
For a change of pace,let’s take a warm water diver, Opal. Cozumel. Keep on doing touch dives. not enough that she died, but her friend and employee is in a wheel chair as he tried to save her, Her husband (ex) certified mine. He illegally used a former glass bottom boat to cross to PDC and it sunk. its just luck that all the divers survived.
poor judgement, risk taking.
6) doing too much too soon. Again, initial success allows this person to feel that they are on the right track and that the basics do not apply to them. This can be difficulty of dive, too much gear that they aren’t really conversant with, etc.
The conflation of certification and training combined with a lack of actual experience. Enough dives convince them to continue along the same path without doing the foundational work that provides the skills and experience to handle the problem that eventually may arise. Equipment failure, bad conditions, a chain of events that does not get broken that leads to potential disaster. More experience would have equipt the diver to address the issue that came up.
7) adventurers. These people, and the dive community know that they are on the leading edge, are proficient but eventually the fatal accident occurs.
8) against better judgement, people f up and know it. Might be the dive that they take that they shouldn’t because they are unwell or conditions are too bad but they have a limited oppprtunity to get to the wreck, end of season, paid money, or want to beat someone else to do something. Perhaps they have done this before so feel it’s safe to do it again.
9) poor or clouded judgement

I once saw or read that dive accidents tend to cluster with new and inexperienced divers, and very experienced divers. For different reasons both are at risk.
 

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