Cave Certs Expiration

[syntaxerrorsix]

No I am saying why not train the divers for dives they are likely to do. Seems to me a few more dives at Cave 1 level and you can teach them how to do a jump or mark a T. This is what Naui and Gue do and I think it is a better way. I believe cavern, intro, apprentice and full cave are just more steps than needed. It is hard for intro divers to find buddies to dive with as no navigational decisions and 1/6ths is extremely limiting.

It's supposed to be limiting. It's suppose to give you time to fine tune what you've learned in class and get you ready for the next class. Intro/Basic/Apprentice are part of a curriculum. They were never intended to be stand alone courses. The ultimate goal was to become cave certified.

Going from OW gear to technical gear and taking all of those courses at the same time will not and does not properly prepare students or train students to master anything.

 

[tbone1004]

you do also realize that both NAUI and GUE have a REQUIRED intro to tech course prior to getting into cave 1? I.e. you already know how to dive doubles, know how to use a drysuit, know how to kick properly, not like the rest of them where your cavern/intro course is basically intro to tech but done in a cavern zone?

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

exactly. I don't dive with intro divers because diving to their sixths with no nav decisions isn't worth gearing up. I'm sorry, but for me it just isn't worth 90 minutes of set up and clean up time gearing up for a 30-45 minute cave dive. Let them dive to thirds and make a jump? I will do those dives all day long. I don't need to line out a cave or do 6 different jumps to enjoy a dive, but gearing up for a dive to sixths just isn't worth the hassle to me. Let the training reflect what the divers want out of their training and adapt. The old agencies are refusing to adapt, and it's going to bite them. That said it is ironic that the oldest and youngest agencies are the ones adapting to the times, with the ones in the middle being stuck in the mud

And here's another area where we differ. I'll dive any dive you want to dive. I don't shun new members to the community because they aren't "at my level". We routinely dive with new cavern and cave students because we enjoy diving and enjoy building new teams and watching them progress into divers that can do bigger dives.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

you do also realize that both NAUI and GUE have a REQUIRED intro to tech course prior to getting into cave 1? I.e. you already know how to dive doubles, know how to use a drysuit, know how to kick properly, not like the rest of them where your cavern/intro course is basically intro to tech but done in a cavern zone?

Yep, I've seen what NAUI churns out. I was an active NAUI divemaster for 7 years. GUE is much more stand up but that really doesn't change the cave diver factory mentality and I see the crap divers it has been producing over the years.

 

[tbone1004]

you clearly don't know me. I dive with new divers all the time for the reasons you mentioned, but if I'm driving 7 hours to cave country and spending my money to be down there, I'm going to do the dives I want to do, and those aren't intro level dives. In many of the cave systems in Florida, I can do the dives that I want to do when limited to NAUI cave 1 standards.

Have you been involved with NAUI recently and seen what they churn out on the technical side? Recreational doesn't count. Also I'd go look at some of your precious CDS cave students and frankly some of their instructors and reconsider that comment, because every one of the agencies is guilty of producing piss-poor instructors

 

[Jack Hammer]

Tom, I agree with you fully that something like what GUE allows for Cave 1 would be a better for newer cave divers. However, GUE does it a little different than you portray.

The basic skills of bouyancy, donating, trim, propulsion, anti-sitting, etc while task loaded are taught in Fundies and a tech pass (higher standard for skills) is required before taking Cave 1. It takes 4 long days of diving and review to pass Fundies and most people do not earn a tech past their first try.

Cave 1 is taught over 5 long days in the water followed by class room review. These can easily be 12+ hour days of training. Many of the dive skills introduced and taught in a typical Cavern and Intro class are required to possess prior to signing up. The skills that are added need to be performed to a high degree of skill repeatedly.

All this equates to essentially 9 long days of training vs getting to apprentice in 6 regular days.

Their Cave 1 divers are allowed 1 navigational decision and 1/3rd of 2/3rds for gas usage. (This equates to 800psi penetration gas from 3600psi filled tanks vs Intros allowed 1/6th which is 600psi penetration gas).

I firmly don't believe intro or apprentice or zero to hero divers should be allowed to dive to full thirds. They typically don't have the experience to fully understand when or how to apply it safely yet.

Edit: added missing smiley, clarified 1st sentence

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

you clearly don't know me. I dive with new divers all the time for the reasons you mentioned, but if I'm driving 7 hours to cave country and spending my money to be down there, I'm going to do the dives I want to do, and those aren't intro level dives. In many of the cave systems in Florida, I can do the dives that I want to do when limited to NAUI cave 1 standards.

Have you been involved with NAUI recently and seen what they churn out on the technical side? Recreational doesn't count. Also I'd go look at some of your precious CDS cave students and frankly some of their instructors and reconsider that comment, because every one of the agencies is guilty of producing piss-poor instructors

Oh I quite agree ALL AGENCIES are putting out a lot of crap divers. Don't misunderstand me. I'm only addressing your feelings that they need to cram more training into a shorter period because students are breaking standards and are getting bored.

 

[tbone1004]

Oh I quite agree ALL AGENCIES are putting out a lot of crap divers. Don't misunderstand me. I'm only addressing your feelings that they need to cram more training into a shorter period because students are breaking standards and are getting bored.

but you still don't get it do you?

Ok, here's the basic problem. Cavern is not an actual cavern course anymore. Cavern is an intro to tech course that happens to be in an overhead. I.e. this is where people learn how to dive doubles/sidemount for the first time, learn how to kick properly, and hopefully dive in good trim. Literally intro to tech but in the overhead. You can't teach it in 2 days, so if you combine cavern/intro it's basically intro to tech in 4 days with the added skill of running a reel and some other skills

If you take the 2 step GUE/NAUI approach, you have a 3+ day course of intro to tech where you learn all of the fundamentals BEFORE you get to cave country, then you get 4-6 days of actually learning how to dive in a cave. Like @Jack Hammer said, 7-9 days of training to get you to roughly apprentice level.
Ergo, the CDS et al way is LESS training in the same time period because you get less dives to actually learn how to cave dive because so many are spent on how to be an actual diver.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

Cavern is a recreational course in every agency but GUE.

It is almost ALWAYS done in recreational gear.

 

[tbone1004]

fine, then call it a 4 day intro course, but it is always marketed as cavern/intro, call it what you want, but it isn't what you believe it is. You are clearly stuck back in the 1970's with the rest of the agencies and refuse to move forward with the times. It's sad that there are so many that refuse to adapt to the changing environment and clink on to antiquated and unfortunately less effective methods based on "because we've always done it that way"