Cave Certs Expiration

[tbone1004]

Because what people want to do and what they can safety do with minimum training aren't the same things.

are you even listening to the point that we are trying to make? Combine cavern/intro/apprentice into one 5 day course so people STOP violating their training limitations

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

are you even listening to the point that we are trying to make? Combine cavern/intro/apprentice into one 5 day course so people STOP violating their training limitations

I hear what you are saying. Cave divers with minimum training can't be expected to dive within their certification levels now so we should extend the course to do a zero to hero cave curriculum. If there aren't any standards left to break they won't be breaking them. Got it.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

If you think we can churn out cave divers in 5 days of training you may be part of the problem.

 

[tbone1004]

quit putting words in my mouth. In what sense is cavern-apprentice a zero to hero? The difference is they are now allowed to dive to thirds, and make a jump or even something as simple as go through a T, not rocket science, and your precious NSS-CDS doesn't actually require dives, and by doing so allows the zero-hero in the first place where GUE/NAUI don't by requiring dives between courses

 

[tbone1004]

If you think we can churn out cave divers in 5 days of training you may be part of the problem.

I'd pay to see the look on JJ's face if you told him that in person because that is exactly what you're saying

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

I'd pay to see the look on JJ's face if you told him that in person because that is exactly what you're saying

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. 5 day courses churning out zero to hero divers is a piss poor way to make and retain quality divers and the caves are RIFE with examples.

 

[boulderjohn]

Most scuba agencies have adopted Bloom's mastery learning/standards-based approach, and in doing so, time has become unimportant. In education circles, we talk about it this way:

In traditional instruction, time is the standard and learning is the variable. In standards-based learning, learning is the standard and time is the variable.
​

When I set off to get cave training, I had been doing technical diving for several years, I was used to all the equipment (except reels, spools, and arrows), and I could do all the kicks. The first day was all academics and land practice, and then it was cavern training at the Ballroom at Ginnie Springs. As we set up our gear, an interested onlooker came by and talked with us. When he learned it was a class, he said he was interested in learning cave diving himself, so my instructor gave him his card. Later on, while we were doing my class, we saw that diver in the open water area with his wife. They were working on diving skills. Specifically, they were kneeling in the sand and practicing mask clearing.

Do you really think it should take that new cave diving student the same amount of time to complete a course as it took me?

The published course guidelines are in my view an estimate of what it should take. As for me, I went straight through apprentice in fewer days than advertised. I then went out using my expiring apprentice card and got some more practice. When I felt ready, I went back and got cave certification. In that case, it took me an extra day because I mucked up taking the reel out of the Devil's Ear in extremely high flow and had to come back and prove I could do it right. Learning was the standard--time was the variable.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

I went in with the similar experience. Trimix certified with 50 or so technical dives before starting cavern. You don't go from OW equipment to technical equipment and learn how to cave dive in five days.

I chose a different training path. Mine was more of an apprenticeship. I went from cavern to cave in about two years. I had over 30 training dives in 10 different systems. I had dozens of dives at my certification levels. Meeting the minimum standards is different than learning how to cave dive and learning conditions at many different dive sites. While I understand very few people look for such in depth training I find most of the current minimum standards to be lacking. To think that we now need to cram cavern-apprentice to keep people from breaking standards or getting "bored" appalling. Forget proper training and experience in new gear.

 

[bamafan]

So are you saying we should reduce training standards because some people violate the current ones?

No I am saying why not train the divers for dives they are likely to do. Seems to me a few more dives at Cave 1 level and you can teach them how to do a jump or mark a T. This is what Naui and Gue do and I think it is a better way. I believe cavern, intro, apprentice and full cave are just more steps than needed. It is hard for intro divers to find buddies to dive with as no navigational decisions and 1/6ths is extremely limiting.

 

[tbone1004]

exactly. I don't dive with intro divers because diving to their sixths with no nav decisions isn't worth gearing up. I'm sorry, but for me it just isn't worth 90 minutes of set up and clean up time gearing up for a 30-45 minute cave dive. Let them dive to thirds and make a jump? I will do those dives all day long. I don't need to line out a cave or do 6 different jumps to enjoy a dive, but gearing up for a dive to sixths just isn't worth the hassle to me. Let the training reflect what the divers want out of their training and adapt. The old agencies are refusing to adapt, and it's going to bite them. That said it is ironic that the oldest and youngest agencies are the ones adapting to the times, with the ones in the middle being stuck in the mud