Cave CCR?

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CAPTAIN SINBAD

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Can anyone please enlighten me on what is a Cave CCR course and how would it differ from an open circuit cave course? I do understand that in CCR diving you do not have the same gas limitations as OC but does it still require a separate course? If you already are a CCR diver, can you not take a regular Cave course and apply the skills while wearing a CCR unit?

Thanks in advance for your insights.

Cheers -

Sinbad
 
My understanding is that it is a lot like Cave DPV, in that it is not so much about the gear as the changes in gas supply planning. Dealing with gas strategy in a cave on CCR is a very different beast from OW CCR, as far as my research has taken me. Also, most cave CCR users are doing so because they are going further than OC can take them, so there is a lot of penetration involved. Maybe @JohnnyC can assist...

Disclaimer: I am not a cave diver, nor do I play one on TV (or the surface interval).
 
I'm a cave diver and a rebreather diver. I am not yet prepared to do both at once for significant dives.

As per all skillsets related to diving, there is a course to help with that.

One of the things a cave offers on a bad day is 0 viz, that's difficult on rebreather.

Also navigation task loading combined with rebreather monitoring/operating.

Cave level buoyancy control is also incredibly challenging on a ccr system with sawtooth profile caves.

Those are my big 3, I'm looking forward to reading more experienced replies explaining what else I don't know I don't know about combining my favourite tool and my favorite environment.

Cameron
 
@kensuf would be a better person to ask as far as specifics, especially when it comes to standards and such, as i’m not sure how SOP’s have changed, especially with all of the RESA stuff coming up. As far as I’m aware, you need to be a cave diver and a CCR diver as prerequisites anyway. In terms of being both, and it’s relationship to cave CCR, see my thoughts below.

Because people’s MOD1 experiences vary, potentially significantly, it’s hard to say based on my own experience. I know my MOD1 was taught by a cave explorer, so I got a cave-centric experience, but i’m not sure if the skills we did then are still taught in a current MOD1 course, or if they were even required at the time. When I did my MOD1, I was expected to maintain a viable loop for as long as possible using every technique available. Stay on the loop as long as it is safe was the mantra, because the loop gives you time to sort out issues. When in doubt, bail out, but those skills push that “doubt” threshold farther away. You’d be amazed at how much time SCR gets you.

Gas management is definitely more of a thing. Same as OC cave diving, you’ve still got to get to the exit, so whereas most OW MOD1 courses only deal with the ascent portion of a bailout, cave CCR also deals with the travel and possibly deco aspects. You may do bottle drops and pickups depending on the environment, etc. Much of it will be environmentally specific. Cave CCR in Florida will be different from Mexico, even though they are both up to standards.

BTP is also a much bigger deal in cave CCR, especially when it comes to the zero vis stuff. Like Cameron mentioned, sawtooth profiles are a b*tch.

The best descriptor for it was mentioned to me as, “Cave CCR is for rebreather divers that didn’t learn to dive rebreathers from a cave diver.” As far as what that specifically entails, I can’t comment since i’ve only ever taken one MOD1 course, and it was taught by a cave diver.....

Of note, it’s very common for divers who hold cave and CCR certs to cave dive on their units without taking cave CCR. While there are some places that require it, most do not.

Again, this is from my experience. It could be entirely contrary to current SOP’s as taught by the agencies.
 
Ok, there are no ccr cave cookies and oc cave cookies. Or ccr reels and ow reels.
The rules for T's and jumps are the same. Allways use continous guideline to open water is still the same.

BUT: the differences are in some procedures.
The bailoutgas is different from oc. And you have with a not flooded and no scrubber issues, but not working ccr for example the option of SCR bailout. Then you use the ccr as a gasextender over a longer period (in open water you go up so the PO2 of the offboard gas differs, in caves the chance you have a constant depth over a longer period is bigger). For example, if you know the cave has a depth of 15m for let's say 300m, you can do this on air as bailout without getting problems with deco, but is this gas suitable for SCR? So maybe there is a better bailout gas.
For a lost buddy you have theoretically unlimited time. But what if scrubber duration has exceeded or deco becomes a problem?
Zero viz, do you have a hud or not, can you still read it or not? So can you stay on the loop or not?
But also think about the bailout, how much gas is needed to swim X meter in the cave? Yes, oc is 'easy', go to a max of 1/3, turn the dive, and if nothing happens you go out with 1/3 gas left. But on ccr, how far can you swim on 1 ali80? Sharable bailouts or only bailouts for yourself, teambailout? A ccr brings you easy further in a cave than oc. But the goal is to get out healthy also when **** hits the fan.
 
So I teach CCR cave. I've also recently been in zero vis on CCR. Yes, you can still see the faint glow of your HUD. You can also hear the click of the solenoid. You can also hear the difference between a dry click (out of oxygen) and the normal click when everything is right. You also know about how often the solenoid should click. You get used to that steady pace. Click.......click........click.......click.......

It's soothing. And nice to keep hearing when crap hits the fan.

You can be a CCR diver and not be a cave diver when you start class. I actually prefer it this way. TDI requires the full class to cross over from OC cave to CCR cave. Other agencies only require an abbreviated class. I'd say that gas planning and mixed team considerations are the biggest difference between OC cave class and CCR cave class.

This is coming from a guy who doesn't need a penny from teaching any class, I really do believe that most people will benefit from a CCR cave course. You can be a fantastic CCR diver and a fantastic cave diver, the CCR cave class will still have merit.
 
@RainPilot the cave DPV course that I took was actually a lot more about diving skills than it was about gas planning. The gas planning is pretty simple, carry enough to kick out. Same with CCR *legit the same gas planning*. Need to know your SAC rate and kick speed and you're good to go.

to @CAPTAIN SINBAD card is required if you want to go bubbleless in Ginnie. Very similar to @JohnnyC though, my mod1 was done by a current cave explorer, who's a reformed wreck explorer, and one of the most experienced CCR divers/instructors in the world. The same methods were taught to me about how to stay on the loop as long as possible and all sorts of other skills tailored very specifically at my goal of doing big cave dives with my CCR. I know with 100% certainty that that is not the experience that most people will get during their CCR courses. The way the mod1 course is written and taught by most, it's bailout and go up. That doesn't work so well a mile+ back in a cave. Sure you'll get out, but it's a lot better to stay on the loop.
On top of that, there is a huge difference between the way many cave ccr instructors teach rigging as far as streamlining, ability to plug in offboard dil, etc. that is likely not taught in Mod1 from an OW type instructor.

If you had solid instruction in OC cave, if you had solid cave-style instruction in Mod1, sure you can safely apply both as long as you aren't an idiot. It's the way that this has worked for at least 2 decades, but if you don't have Mod1 from someone who is also at least an active cave CCR diver, I would seriously consider taking the x-over. No different than taking a sidemount course from a cave instructor, it will greatly expedite the learning process for you, and no different than cave DPV, it will likely save some butt-pucker moments during that learning process.
 
If I had to guess I would say its about casuality control with a ccr failure i cant think of much else that would be different. I have often thought about that. any staged bottles for oc would be needed for both divers. perhaps you only need them for one diver. I had always heaqrd that CCR's are a no no in caves because of hte degree of penetration that exceeded the amount of support equipment normally used with OC.
 
If I had to guess I would say its about casuality control with a ccr failure i cant think of much else that would be different. I have often thought about that. any staged bottles for oc would be needed for both divers. perhaps you only need them for one diver. I had always heaqrd that CCR's are a no no in caves because of hte degree of penetration that exceeded the amount of support equipment normally used with OC.

You can easily go farther than the amount of bailout you can carry. An average scrubber and with 3L steels will provide anywhere from 6-10 hours of use under ideal circumstances. Very few people drive their unit that hard, I certainly don't.

There are several bailout strategies that are employed depending on the depth and length of penetration. It's generally split into two categories, self-sufficient bailout, where each diver carries their own bailout to get them to the surface safely, and team bailout, of which there are often several types.

Individual bailout is obviously the safest as every team member carries and/or stages enough gas to have a total failure of all units on the dive. However, on big dives the volume of gas can become cumbersome and unwieldy. Often setup dives are done beforehand to stage gas so the actual volume carried by each diver is less as there are bottles staged along the line. Quite frequently divers will drop gas at various intervals so that at max penetration, they carry a bare minimum of bailout, but they will be able to pickup gas and drop bottles on the way back out. This always leaves gas within a short swim, with less drag for a faster exit as you are not carrying out extra tanks. You can go back and get the the empties later. Not always possible, but it is a usable strategy in some circumstances.

Team bailout uses several strategies, everything from bailout being split so that only one diver can have a failure and everyone else stays on the loop, every diver spreading out that gas load, but that has little margin of error. Another is a quasi-team bailout where total carried is more gas than needed for one guy to get out, but it may not be optimized for the amount of gas needed or the decompression requirement. In this case, each diver may carry a deep bailout gas, one diver carries an intermediate gas, one carries a shallow travel gas, and other deco gas is staged, etc. (this is a VERY simplified explanation btw). This is all worked out beforehand, and in the event of two failures, due to gas contents, the team may be forced to split in order to complete all their deco, but overall the volume is enough for more than one unit failure.

It's all dependent on the depth, length of penetration, amount of decompression, environmental considerations, access to alternative exits, etc. For example, two AL80's in Mexico will pretty much get you to any exit with plenty of volume to spare. That's 2 hours of gas to find a hole in the jungle, and pretty much anybody doing a CCR cave dive in Mexico should be familiar enough to find a place to get out. There are very few swims where you are more than 2 hours from your own entrance, if not one of the myriad of other cenotes that get you to the big scuba tank above the water line. Because of the depth, decompression obligations are little to nonexistent, and you're typically on EAN32 at least. However, this doesn't always hold true, and a dive to the Wakulla Room in The Pit is going to require substantially more gas because of the required deco involved. Diving in Florida in a high flow cave is a whole other set of circumstances to deal with, and due to bailout constraints, what would be a 4 hour dive in Mexico on CCR, might be a 1 hour dive in Florida with required deco, and substantially shorter penetration. It's all environmentally dependent.

Keep in mind rebreather bailout gas management is different from normal OC gas management. While we use at MINIMUM, the rule of thirds during an OC dive, on a CCR, you have the entire gas volume to get you out, so each bailout tank provides you essentially 3 times the available time/distance of a single tank, all things being equal. We don't dive to those extremes, you absolutely don't run your margins that thin, but it illustrates the point. Actual OC gas goes a lot farther when on CCR than when OC cave diving.

It's important to note that I am not espousing any particular method of bailout gas management. It's a decision that the individual or the team needs to make.
 
@KWS quite the opposite, CCR's are brilliant for caves, just don't think that you can ditch all of your OC stuff for obvious reasons. If you are doing straight linear penetration and the goal of the dive is to just get to the end of the line and come home, you aren't going to save much of any gear by going to CCR. You take ~20% of your gas away because you aren't consuming much on penetration, but you still need the other 80% to get home. One dive per site where you are going to the end and back? Doesn't make any sense to bother with a CCR unless it's REALLY far back or trimix depths.
Where it is brilliant is when you are doing multiple dives in the same cave and can just leave the bailout bottles in there until you are done. Saves a lot of hassle in the middle bits. It also is brilliant when you are poking around. A regular dive plan for me is to get to the farthest point of penetration relatively quickly, then take my sweet old time on the way home. I can branch out on any jumps that I want, spend an hour in a single room if I wanted, etc. and not have to worry about gas because I haven't exceeded maximum penetration.

There are two things that changed cave diving for me completely. The first one was helmet mounted small video lights. Removed the tunnel vision that primary lights give and just made the experience better. The second was the CCR. It removed the "tick tock" of time pressure for me and allowed me to go REAL slow which I like. IMO it is an ideal tool for cave diving....
 
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