Cave 1 single tank restriction scares me...

[PfcAJ]

If you get bored with intro limits, get more training.

No need to have a bunch of classes, each teaching a separate tiny component.

"doubles mini" "thirds mini" "jumps mini" "circuit mini" "traverse mini" "stage mini" "deco mini"

Just learn to cave dive if you want to cave dive. We have a reasonable class that trains people the bare minimum to survive in a cave, we call it cave 1 or Intro. If you want to continue, sign up for full cave or cave 2. Simple.

---------- Post added September 11th, 2013 at 04:08 PM ----------

So the alternative is "James or AJ say so, so Sheck was this unsafe guy who didn't know what he's talking about"?

I am certain you guys are skilled, safe divers. Beyond that though there's nothing I know about you to establish your credibility in a way that I would discount what Sheck or an agency you didn't train through says, however much derision you lay into your opinions on a subject.

If there's some compelling reasons that can be cited to support all of the fire and brimstone I've heard against the H-valve, I'd be willing to listen. I'm talking something real though, not just the party-line "You're gonna die" stuff. I've heard that before, and to me it just comes off as scare-tactics. I don't think an H-valve is ideal, but I also don't buy that it's this huge monster worth such ranting. Really, I believe there's an element of chest-thumping on this subject to promote how much "safer" one agency is than any who'd dare allow something that they don't.

Single tanks suck for 1 big huge reason: NOT ENOUGH GAS. You don't have enough reserve to sort out problems, and THAT is a big deal. Sheck did a great job, but we've learned things since then. I don't care what agency you train with. I care about people not drowning.

 

[LiteHedded]

sheck WAS an unsafe guy. read his books. he'd be the first to admit the things he got wrong
sheck exley is, at present, deceased.

 

[nimoh]

sheck WAS an unsafe guy. read his books. he'd be the first to admit the things he got wrong
sheck exley is, at present, deceased.

He was also learning/inventing as he went along both from his own mistakes and from those of others.

A lot of the basic rules of cave diving we use today came from him.

 

[PfcAJ]

And some folks have stopped learning since his passing. Many people view his rules as commandments or something that can't be added to or modified. That's folly.

 

[LiteHedded]

He was also learning/inventing as he went along both from his own mistakes and from those of others.

A lot of the basic rules of cave diving we use today came from him.

i realize that. but it's important not to take everything he said as gospel and think he had it all figured out when he died in 1994. we all know there was plenty of **** left to figure out in the early 90s

 

[nimoh]

And some folks have stopped learning since his passing. Many people view his rules as commandments or something that can't be added to or modified. That's folly.

I agree completely.

---------- Post added September 11th, 2013 at 03:37 PM ----------

i realize that. but it's important not to take everything he said as gospel and think he had it all figured out when he died in 1994. we all know there was plenty of **** left to figure out in the early 90s

I agree, my post was focussed on "sheck WAS an unsafe guy".

The reason there is such a focus on safety now is based on the number of people that have died in caves over the past 30 years. Things were different back then. He however did a lot to promote safe diving, well in cave diving anyway, probably not so much when trying to set world records for depth.

 

[kotik]

sheck exley is, at present, deceased.

... in the future too, I expect.

Sheck was an unsafe guy, no doubt about it. He didn't just push envelopes, he created the envelopes and then burned them. There was of course every likelihood that the stuff he was doing would be the end of him someday.

That was the direction he took personally. That's a lot different than standards established and set down for training of beginning cave divers. I doubt he ever addressed the general cave diving trainee populace saying they need to set goals to break penetration records or do 1000' dives. To say he was unsafe is one thing, to extrapolate that out to say he established standards for beginners that are unsafe is another. And when there are agencies that practice these standards, to say so without offering concrete justification really seems to me like an indirect way to attack the agencies.

Sure there were things to learn since that time. We're still learning, we still need to be wary of being rigidly convinced of anything. Since his time, there were those who were rabidly convinced that proponents of sidemount diving would lure scores of people to their deaths with such stupid, unsafe practices. This has not proven out. I catch the same tone of "You're doing it wrong, you're gonna die" in these diatribes about the dreaded H-valve.

Is the single tank H-valve the best thing in the world? No. Is it any factor in any accidents? No, not that I'm aware of at least. No one can accuse me of saying things must not change as new knowledge develops. But what's supposed to change? Agencies need to ban an item because someone picked it for their crusade? I just see this as kind of a manufactured boogeyman, and it becomes a turn-off to hear words like "stupid" applied to anyone who might have a different opinion.

AJ, James-- I respect your thoughts, and I appreciate you sharing them. I'm sure I've picked up my share of tips and insight from things you've said over the years. But I really don't believe this H-valve thing has shown itself to be a real-world problem, nothing has materialized to justify being insulting about it.

 

[ucfdiver]

AJ, James-- I respect your thoughts, and I appreciate you sharing them. I'm sure I've picked up my share of tips and insight from things you've said over the years. But I really don't believe this H-valve thing has shown itself to be a real-world problem, nothing has materialized to justify being insulting about it.

I would present to you the fact that accident free does not mean something is safe. For instance, you could claim that not analyzing banked gas hasn't shown it's self to be a real issue around cave country-- and it hasn't-- but it's also not safe even though countless people don't do it and have gotten away with it. I would also mention that there have been zero deaths from diving a single tank without H/Y valve when gas rules are followed as well.

Bottom line-- I try to ask myself what's the best way, and do that. H valves are not the best way. Since it only applies to intro/basic cave divers for a short period of time (less than one year for most divers), I don't believe there's enough proof that it's safe, especially given that when it was common many divers were still doing zero to hero and never diving a single.

 

[kotik]

I would present to you the fact that accident free does not mean something is safe. For instance, you could claim that not analyzing banked gas hasn't shown it's self to be a real issue around cave country-- and it hasn't-- but it's also not safe even though countless people don't do it and have gotten away with it. I would also mention that there have been zero deaths from diving a single tank without H/Y valve when gas rules are followed as well.

Bottom line-- I try to ask myself what's the best way, and do that. H valves are not the best way. Since it only applies to intro/basic cave divers for a short period of time (less than one year for most divers), I don't believe there's enough proof that it's safe, especially given that when it was common many divers were still doing zero to hero and never diving a single.

I can live with that answer. I do agree an H-valve is not the best way, that's pretty obvious. I also agree the data is inconclusive. That works both ways.

For disclosure on my own stake here, in case anyone wonders: my dear wife happens to be intro certified, and it's not real likely she'll ever progress in her training. She's just not very interested in going beyond where she is. She's also not interested in walking around with more than one tank (if there were ever any chance of getting her in a two tank configuration, it'd be sidemount)

So once every blue moon, this lady will do a short cave dive with me, and those occasions are cause for celebration for me, I am beside myself at the chance to share the experience when it happens. She uses an H-valve, but I assure you she's no dummy. I don't consider myself one either, and I would say for the sort of dives we do, the H-valve doesn't contribute to any big additional risks.

 

[Max Speed]

I guess what rankles me is: the OP posts a question "Can I do X". When OP gets a response that doing X may not be the most kosher thing, he brushes that aside. Seriously, why even ask the question then?

The OP doesn't have a lick of cave training yet. A cave instructor is definitely going to be more than just a self proclaimed expert by comparison, since the OP has no expertise to fall back on whatsoever. And it's not that the OP is listening to an instructor and then relying on his own counsel. It's been suggested a couple of times that questions like this might be better discussed with an instructor rather than doing the learning over the internet. That idea just prompted a smart-a$$ed comment about his mommy.

We have a person with no training, who apparently equates the concept of seeking advice about cave diving from a cave instructor instead of the internet, with running to mommy. I just don't believe that's a good perspective to start out with.

If there are agencies that don't have an expiration on their lower training levels, then maybe those are a good fit for the OP's goals. For my part I encourage respecting whatever limits are imposed by the level of your training.

Apparently you don't have a clue about what I asked or why.

1. I am not going into a cave without redundant and independant air. I do not go into a wreck without enough redundant / independant air to exit and reach the surface. I do not go deeper than I can CESA without redundant / independant air.

2. I have had a buddy "fail" when asked for an octo.

3. I have had a first stage fail to "closed"

4. I have had a first stage freeflow and lose all the air in 1-1/2 minutes.

5. I have had a dip tube clog shut.

6. I wouldn't be too surprised if a neck o ring failed.

So... you're not going to convince me that a H valve is safe in a cave. Period. If your wife wants to use an H valve that is fine, since you are likely a reliable partner and can carry her redundant air and reg. I do not have a buddy I trust that much.

I might pursue training beyond intro/cave 1 within a year or I might not so I am not interested in a cert that expires. I am sure you will be surprised to discover that I am not interested in "cheating" after a doubles endorsement expires. If I was interested in cheating I would not have bothered to ask the question. ARE YOU FOLLOWING SO FAR?

So... the answer that I was looking for was TDI OR NAUI.

WHERE YOU GOT ALL THIS CRAP ABOUT HOW I FEEL ABOUT INSTRUCTORS OR TRAINING IS BEYOND ME. EITHER YOUR READING COMPREHENSION IS POOR OR YOUR IMAGINATION IS OVERACTIVE.

CONSIDER FINDING A READING INSTRUCTOR BEFORE TRAINING TO THE NEXT LEVEL.

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