carbon monoxide in tanks - cozumel

[Couv]

.....snip.....
PADI could easily require its PADI-affiliated fill stations to install a $1000 CO monitor. DAN could produce a set of guidelines for safe compressor installation and operation, however this would require them to acknowlege the air quality elephant in the room problem in the first place......

.....or any scuba oriented organization that is happy to be affiliated with an air/gas supplier. The "members" of these organizations like Instructors, Dive Masters, and group leaders could easily report back if on site monitoring was available.

But until that happens, it's time for us as divers and consumers to start asking the question, "Do you have a method of testing air quality on site?"

Couv

 

[DandyDon]

I think if you do a little more digging you will see that this is a worst case scenario and that the cost of purchasing a ToxiRae 3 with equivalent supply of calibration gas is identical to the Pocket CO and you will have a far superior monitor that is calibrated at 10 ppm CO rather than 100 ppm which will give poor accuracy when trying to measure CO contamination in the < 10 ppm range.

Here's how:

ToxiRae 3

ToxiRae 3 $150 from a distributor in Utah according to Scared Silly

0.5 lpm regulator for 17 L tank $96
GASCO - 72-MFV/17 Mini Valve and Flow Meter


17 litres 10 ppm CO/balance air $45 (this will provide 34 calibrations or fewer calibrations and a supply of bump gas for verifying the accuracy each day before use)
GASCO Non-Reactive Single & Two Gas Mixtures - Carbon Monoxide

Flow restrictor for BCD lp hose $31
BC Connector for Gas Analysis [GA-BC-Flow] - $30.45 : Tech Diving Limited, a subsidiary of Scuba Training and Technology Inc.

Total $322


Pocket CO

Unit with only 3 calibrations and no bump gas potential to verify accuracy $199
Calibration gas for 3 additional years done 3x per year $120

Total $319


Other properties to consider:

1) Analysis time

Time to take a reading known as T90 or time to reach 90 % of true concentration

ToxiRae 3 : 15 seconds
BWT Gas Alert Extreme : 30 seconds
Pocket CO : 3 minutes in bag

If one needs to check multiple tanks the ToxiRae 3 is the way to go due to its very fast sensor

2) Calibration gas concentration

With the ToxiRae 3 and BWT Gas Alert Extreme one can change the calibration gas concentration from 5 ppm to 50 ppm. In order to have high accuracy in the 0 to 10 ppm range these detectors must be calibrated at 10 ppm not 100 ppm as found with the Pocket CO.

3) Water-resistance

Both the ToxiRae 3 and BW Tech units are splash proof and will withstand immersion to one metre for one minute.

The Pocket CO has no IP rating and is not splash proof as the air intake ports communicate directly with the printed circuit board and battery. If this unit falls in salt water it will be ruined.

4) Cross-reacting gases

Each unit will react to NO, H2, and H2S and give false positive ratings. The Pocket CO reacts to far more cross-reacting gases which is a problem if one is challenging a fill station owner yet the contaminant is simply NO and not CO.


Given the cost of ownership over 4 years is the same between the Pocket CO and ToxiRae 3 the latter is a better value especially considering one will also have 22 litres of calibration gas remaining for daily bump checks.


For Canadians the calgas, regulator, and portables can be purchased from
Concept Controls Ask for Dave at the Mississauga office.

While the 10 ppm CO calgas may not be listed it is a stock product from Gasco.

Getting other divers on the wagon with this idea has seemed futile at times, but maybe not so much. I kinda wish I'd had this info before I bought my Pocket CO, but then the start up cost is going to be a factor for many and the Pocket CO does have a lesser start cost even with its weak points, but the TR3 is very appealing and I certainly appreciate your suggestions as I am confident that you know your stuff here. I hope you don't mind if I'm save this post to offer to others when the subject arises now an then.

The ToxiRAE 3 Single Gas Detector seems to be available on the net at two sites...

SALE - RAE Systems ToxiRAE 3 Single Gas Detector - PK Safety Supplies $155 plus shipping

G01-0102-000 ToxiRAE 3 Personal Gas Monitors $159 plus shipping

DAN CEO Dan Orr and I have exchanged a couple of emails since our phone chat yesterday, in which I ask requested that DAN offer CO analyzer sales on their site - and while it may take some time, I certainly hope they will. Such would seem to serve as an implied idea endorsement there, as well as a good source.

Telling a new diver in OW training that s/he needs to check his gas for CO may not work, but when s/he applies for a passport for dive travel - yep! There have been some recent reports of suspected bad gas cases in the States which were never confirmed, but the risk does increase offshore.

 

[cruiser]

While the technology in these CO sensors seems to be more than adequate, it all goes downhill for me when the ziplock baggie is needed. How much gas is lost/exchanged while taking the baggie off the valve and quickly zipping it up? It seems like a clumsy way to capture and attempt to contain the sample air. Is this standard for portable sensors?

 

[augustib]

I probably would not have even taken up diving if the PADI materials had specified that I had a 3-5% chance of being poisoned by CO on each dive and there are currently no effective measures to reduce this risk except by buying an expensive monitor; but now that I have the equipment, it makes sense to test each and every tank, despite the on-going expense of doing so.

How many times have you seen "Diving is fun, safe and easy". This type of tag line is used by industry everyday and it should be safe. However, the fact that the large organizations that have spawned the commercialization of diving (which I think is great) need to take some action to insure that the air we use is safe. They hardly acknowledge that bad air is an issue. I don't know why with the advancement in computers we don't see affordable inline air quality readings like commercial divers have.... but at the least appropriate air quality checks should be made before each dive. Something that can be done today and for some reason is not being picked up by the industry. If this was picked up by the industry it would only make diving safer.

I've looked at every portable CO tester mentioned in this thread and I will purchase one... however none of them are great for divers. At the very least they all seem very prone to environmental issues and all seem to have been the result of modifying a product the company already produced so that is was kinda tweaked for divers.... but the bottom line is simple... none of them are really developed for divers. I just can't understand why with the amount of money divers are willing to spend on diving gear and travel they wouldn't pay the additional money to insure they have good air.... look at what we as an industry spend on dive computers to insure the safety of dive table theories. Air quality on the other hand is 100% pure proven science and is frankly very basic science. My point is simple: The industry needs a quality product / solution that can grow legs and become main stream. CO and Oxygen testing has been around for years but has never been integrated / developed into a practical diving solution for recreational divers. I'm actually considering taking action on this issue after my Cozumel adventure. I sold my companies about 1 1/2 years ago and it is time for me to start something new. I've always played in the electronics arena and my family still owns a small contract electrical manufacturing plant that with minimal efforts may be able to get a product designed and prototyped for the diving industry... and with a little luck get a vendors excited to manufacture the product at a good cost point so that it has the opportunity to grow some legs and make diving safer.

 

[augustib]

DAN CEO Dan Orr and I have exchanged a couple of emails since our phone chat yesterday, in which I ask requested that DAN offer CO analyzer sales on their site - and while it may take some time, I certainly hope they will. Such would seem to serve as an implied idea endorsement there, as well as a good source.

Telling a new diver in OW training that s/he needs to check his gas for CO may not work, but when s/he applies for a passport for dive travel - yep! There have been some recent reports of suspected bad gas cases in the States which were never confirmed, but the risk does increase offshore.

Thanks for your efforts in following up with DAN. It is encouraging to see DAN engaging in the conversation. We will know they are serious if the next Alert Diver magazine covers the subject... as it would be a very bold move for them to acknowledge the issue publicly. If they are 100% committed to safe diving they should be able to justify there position without much political fallout from the dive organizations.

 

[DandyDon]

While the technology in these CO sensors seems to be more than adequate, it all goes downhill for me when the ziplock baggie is needed. How much gas is lost/exchanged while taking the baggie off the valve and quickly zipping it up? It seems like a clumsy way to capture and attempt to contain the sample air. Is this standard for portable sensors?

I use 1 US gallon = 0.133680556 cubic feet. Can you spare that?

As I have mentioned, the slider bag is easiest to use, fastest to close, lasts thru several tests and handling, and spares are cheap.

How many times have you seen "Diving is fun, safe and easy". This type of tag line is used by industry everyday and it should be safe. However, the fact that the large organizations that have spawned the commercialization of diving (which I think is great) need to take some action to insure that the air we use is safe. They hardly acknowledge that bad air is an issue. I don't know why with the advancement in computers we don't see affordable inline air quality readings like commercial divers have.... but at the least appropriate air quality checks should be made before each dive. Something that can be done today and for some reason is not being picked up by the industry. If this was picked up by the industry it would only make diving safer.

I've looked at every portable CO tester mentioned in this thread and I will purchase one... however none of them are great for divers. At the very least they all seem very prone to environmental issues and all seem to have been the result of modifying a product the company already produced so that is was kinda tweaked for divers.... but the bottom line is simple... none of them are really developed for divers. I just can't understand why with the amount of money divers are willing to spend on diving gear and travel they wouldn't pay the additional money to insure they have good air.... look at what we as an industry spend on dive computers to insure the safety of dive table theories. Air quality on the other hand is 100% pure proven science and is frankly very basic science. My point is simple: The industry needs a quality product / solution that can grow legs and become main stream. CO and Oxygen testing has been around for years but has never been integrated / developed into a practical diving solution for recreational divers. I'm actually considering taking action on this issue after my Cozumel adventure. I sold my companies about 1 1/2 years ago and it is time for me to start something new. I've always played in the electronics arena and my family still owns a small contract electrical manufacturing plant that with minimal efforts may be able to get a product designed and prototyped for the diving industry... and with a little luck get a vendors excited to manufacture the product at a good cost point so that it has the opportunity to grow some legs and make diving safer.

Necessity is the mother, eh? Good luck.

I wish Analox would produce one for divers, but the demand hasn't been there - and my encouragement doesn't do much even tho it is a pet peeve of mine. Your personal story is much stronger; I hope you will keep telling it! I really would like for you to phone Dan Orr now while all this is fresh. He is a pleasant fellow to chat with and you have a strong message...!

 

[jd950]

Interesting discussion. I have decided to purchase and use a CO tester. I am waiting to see if Analox comes up with something interesting before I travel again in June. if not, I think I will go with the ToxiRae.

FWIW, I have never had a dive incident with CO (that I know of) but almost lost a child to CO poisoning once. A few hundred bucks isn't much in that context.

 

[Sask Diver]

If PADI and DAN can not or will not do anything about this problem, how about an online petition or boycot to these resorts.
I am new to diving , but I think if they were to get thousands of emails saying that no one will use thier services untill they could prove that the proper safty mesures were in place.
Just mho

 

[cruiser]

I use 1 US gallon = 0.133680556 cubic feet. Can you spare that?

The amount of air I have to use to test a tank isn't my concern. I'll have enough of that to spare

However, I question whether the contents of the baggie is an accurate sample of cylinder air, since outside air can enter the baggie while it's being removed from the valve and zipped shut. The resulting diluted air in the baggie may have an acceptable reading; however, the cylinder air alone might not be acceptable.

Dan, I've never used one of these testers and the process may not be as clumsy as this. I don't know, so that's why I'm asking. Maybe it's a practice thing too, the more you do it, the more adept you become.

This thread has definitely got me thinking about my own CO tester.

 

[DandyDon]

The amount of air I have to use to test a tank isn't my concern. I'll have enough of that to spare

However, I question whether the contents of the baggie is an accurate sample of cylinder air, since outside air can enter the baggie while it's being removed from the valve and zipped shut. The resulting diluted air in the baggie may have an acceptable reading; however, the cylinder air alone might not be acceptable.

Dan, I've never used one of these testers and the process may not be as clumsy as this. I don't know, so that's why I'm asking. Maybe it's a practice thing too, the more you do it, the more adept you become.

This thread has definitely got me thinking about my own CO tester.

Ah, ok - gotcha! Sorry if I seemed rude. A reasonable point now that you explain, but testing a gallon is more than most currently do - with some bad results, even tho most are well hidden from news.

Interesting discussion. I have decided to purchase and use a CO tester. I am waiting to see if Analox comes up with something interesting before I travel again in June. if not, I think I will go with the ToxiRae.

FWIW, I have never had a dive incident with CO (that I know of) but almost lost a child to CO poisoning once. A few hundred bucks isn't much in that context.

I just spoke with Patti Clarkson at Analox and she thanks they will have one ready is 90 days - so I then apologized for my comments to her on this thread. Nice to see some action! No idea what it may cost or what it may be, but progress is progress...!

And she tells me that the inline monitor for compressors is only $630 to a dive shop! Anyone else here find it irritating that the Ops think less of our lives than that? Not that I would stop testing tanks even if the Op had the monitor; who knows when and where the tanks were filled? Yet there is not much chance of that; most just don't care enough to bother do they...?