carbon monoxide in tanks - cozumel

[FastEddy]

"Not that I would stop testing tanks even if the Op had the monitor; who knows when and where the tanks were filled? Yet there is not much chance of that; most just don't care enough to bother do they...?"

You got that right, DandyDon. People are always screwing up and the more they get away with it the more they continue down the path of incompetence. Half the time I go through a fast food drive-thru, they screw up my order (and that is their ONLY job, getting the order correct). No amount of complaining will change the error rate in my view. Why would it be any different when it comes to running a compressor?

One of my posts a few pages back mentioned the the OP I dove with in Bonaire that thought it was just fine to expose the compressor room to solvents because the "filter would remove 100% of it". The operator kept repeating to my wife: "I have been doing this for 37 years" as if repeating mistakes for a long-time turns those mistakes into a good practice. Reminds me of smokers who tell me they have been smoking 30 years and they are "not dead yet" - about the same level of "reasoning".

Look out for number 1 because nobody else will.

 

[swamp diver]

I just spoke with Patti Clarkson at Analox and she thanks they will have one ready is 90 days - so I then apologized for my comments to her on this thread. Nice to see some action! No idea what it may cost or what it may be, but progress is progress...!

And she tells me that the inline monitor for compressors is only $630 to a dive shop! Anyone else here find it irritating that the Ops think less of our lives than that? Not that I would stop testing tanks even if the Op had the monitor; who knows when and where the tanks were filled? Yet there is not much chance of that; most just don't care enough to bother do they...?

We own a CO Clear and while the unit only costs $630 you need two bottles of calibration gas (zero air, 10 ppm CO), a 0.5 lpm regulator, plus a high and low pressure regulator so add in $65 x2, $110, and $140 = $380 + $630 = $1010. If you look at the CO Clear manual on Analox's web site all of these mandatory extras are listed. Calibration is quarterly.

 

[DandyDon]

We own a CO Clear and while the unit only costs $630 you need two bottles of calibration gas (zero air, 10 ppm CO), a 0.5 lpm regulator, plus a high and low pressure regulator so add in $65 x2, $110, and $140 = $380 + $630 = $1010. If you look at the CO Clear manual on Analox's web site all of these mandatory extras are listed. Calibration is quarterly.

And at 10c/tank it would pay for itself in 10,000 tanks.

Even at $1/tank, why is my life not worth it....?

 

[swamp diver]

I've looked at every portable CO tester mentioned in this thread and I will purchase one... however none of them are great for divers. At the very least they all seem very prone to environmental issues and all seem to have been the result of modifying a product the company already produced so that is was kinda tweaked for divers.... but the bottom line is simple... none of them are really developed for divers. I just can't understand why with the amount of money divers are willing to spend on diving gear and travel they wouldn't pay the additional money to insure they have good air.... look at what we as an industry spend on dive computers to insure the safety of dive table theories. Air quality on the other hand is 100% pure proven science and is frankly very basic science. My point is simple: The industry needs a quality product / solution that can grow legs and become main stream. CO and Oxygen testing has been around for years but has never been integrated / developed into a practical diving solution for recreational divers. I'm actually considering taking action on this issue after my Cozumel adventure. I sold my companies about 1 1/2 years ago and it is time for me to start something new. I've always played in the electronics arena and my family still owns a small contract electrical manufacturing plant that with minimal efforts may be able to get a product designed and prototyped for the diving industry... and with a little luck get a vendors excited to manufacture the product at a good cost point so that it has the opportunity to grow some legs and make diving safer.

Over the last decade or so many business have tried to develop a diver specific CO device and they have all failed generally because the market is too small or they were not able to solve the calibration service cost and access issue which is the current stumbling block to widespread dissemination of this portable electrochemical sensor technology.

Back in the nineties there was a device called the Air Guard made by Seaways Engineering which plugged directly into the lp hose and used a Drager tube for CO detection. Not sure what happened to that company but the device didn't last long on the market at $100. Cost per tube was $3 and they could only be used once.

The CO-Cop was a reasonable device for the early nineties but it relied too much on interpretation of different shades of beige and while it would protect against gross contamination there were problems in the < 10 ppm range. It is no longer available and electrochemical sensor technology has supplanted this colorimetric technology.

Around 2005 a company called Tekair developed a very nice monitor modeled on the BWT Gas Alert Extreme which was diver specific (see photo). The company was at DEMA and spent a ton of cash marketing the $200 device only to go belly up a year or two later. Again they could sell the monitors but it was the ability to get the units calibrated which killed the business plan. Most sport divers were not willing to shell out another $200 at the time to purchase a regulator and tank of calgas.

The BWT Gas Alert Extreme is the same unit as the Tekair diver unit but with a few more features hence the higher price. Now that the ToxiRae 3 is available for $150 this unit is ideal for divers. Other than packaging it with a flow restrictor and putting it in a Pelican 1010 case this unit is very reliable, small, favorably priced, and as close to a diver specific unit as one could hope for. I have spoke to the manufacturer and the margins on these are razor thin. They make their money selling one hundred of these units at a time to mining companies and other industrial operations. Because the dive market is much smaller expect the Analox unit whenever it comes out to be significantly more expensive than $150.

Analox is still going to have to solve the calibration issue before they bring a portable CO monitor to the sport diver market. I'd be very curious to hear what Patti at Analox has to say on the issue of calibration. As mentioned previously if Analox was able to sell a CO Clear fixed monitor to a dive fill station in every major city there would then be a network of shops where individual divers could take their portable units for regular calibration prior to heading south. The CO Clear uses 10 ppm CO calgas and the shop would own the calibration equipment and offer calibration service to the individual diver for a small fee.

Having DAN and/or PADI encourage compressor fill station operators to purchase the CO Clear or similar fixed CO monitor would establish such a network and solve the calibration service access issue quickly and simply. It is really DAN and the training agencies which hold the answer to a systemic fix for this CO compressed gas contamination risk in the dive industry.

 

[beachnik]

And she tells me that the inline monitor for compressors is only $630 to a dive shop! Anyone else here find it irritating that the Ops think less of our lives than that? Not that I would stop testing tanks even if the Op had the monitor; who knows when and where the tanks were filled? Yet there is not much chance of that; most just don't care enough to bother do they...?

I couldn't agree more.

 

[cruiser]

Ah, ok - gotcha! Sorry if I seemed rude. A reasonable point now that you explain, but testing a gallon is more than most currently do - with some bad results, even tho most are well hidden from news.

No worries. I re-read my post and it wasn't clear.

Once you've calibrated your air tester, how many tanks can you test before it needs to be recalibrated?

 

[DandyDon]

No worries. I re-read my post and it wasn't clear.

Once you've calibrated your air tester, how many tanks can you test before it needs to be recalibrated?

Hard to say. I do it before a trip.

But then this has been a learning experience for me. No info was available for me when I found this one and started. Just figured someone needed to get going, but have since met a few others here. Swampdiver has been a great help... :medal:

 

[swamp diver]

Once you've calibrated your air tester, how many tanks can you test before it needs to be recalibrated?

I was looking at the Pocket CO web site and came across this regarding calibration frequency. It appears they are saying to calibrate every 2 weeks if being used on a daily basis which would get very expensive at $40 for 3 calibrations. What one should really do is bump check the unit daily using a known concentration of gas and when the result is out of spec then one should recalibrate the unit.

I find the BW Tech units hold a calibration very well and one can easily go for 4 to 6 months between calibrations. The ToxiRae 3 seems to require a somewhat more frequent interval in the 3 month range to maintain sensor accuracy.

"Due to the high accuracy needed at low concentrations for SCUBA, we recommend calibration before each diving trip of two weeks or less. For longer dive trips, we suggest recalibrating after two weeks. Calibration can be done with the cylinder that comes with the tank test kit, and later with our calibration kit (good for 3 calibrations)."

Order the Pocket CO SCUBA - Carbon Monoxide Detector

 

[DandyDon]

I actually got a reply to the message I sent the Op asking for more information. See this post

 

[beachnik]

Dandy-

You're relentless, and I mean that in a good way.

I was searching through some old posts - you've been bird doggin' this issue for years. Hats off to you!

The efforts made by yourself, swamp diver, Scared Silly and a number of other stand-out members is really appreciated.