Can you have proper weighting if you are not in a horizontal trim?

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raftingtigger

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A recent thread “Drop the freaking weights” got me thinking about proper buoyancy and trim in terms of simple physics. I’ve come to the conclusion that to be properly weighted you MUST be in horizontal trim.

What physics are involved? For starters I simplified the problem by ignoring any hydrodynamic forces, the diver moves too slowly for these to play an important role. Secondly this applies to a moving diver. A diver who is not moving need not be in any particular trim to stay neutrally buoyant.

Some definitions:

Buoyancy and trim are different.

Buoyancy is the relative density between the entire diver/gear complex and the surrounding ocean. Practically it determines whether the MOTIONLESS diver will ascend, stay neutral, or descend in the water column. Divers adjust their buoyancy before the dive by adding or subtracting heavy (denser than water) objects to their gear. These include tanks (steel vs aluminum), tank harness systems (steel backplate, aluminum backplate, plastic and/or fabric Jacket/back inflate/something other BCD), lights and cameras, and of course lead. Divers adjust their buoyancy while diving by changing the volume of flexible air spaces.

Trim is the stable position the diver ends up in without moving or finning. This is an orientation in 3 axes (pitch, roll, and yaw for you pilots). For this discussion we will only deal with pitch, specifically a horizontal pitch and a head-up or head-down pitch.

Center-of-gravity (CG) and center-of-buoyancy (CB) are not the same.

CG is the point the object will rotate around due to gravitational forces. CB is the point the object will rotate around due to the buoyant forces (for lack of a better term). For our simple physics discussion the diver/gear complex can be reduced to a CG point and a CB point. These points may/may not be co-located. If the CG and CB are not co-located on the longitudinal axis then the diver will end up in either a head-up or head-down trim position. The CG can move by extension or retraction of limbs. The CB can move with a change in the volume of gas in each flexible air space (exposure suit, BC, lungs), and can also change if the same total volume is distributed between all the air spaces differently. In the former the buoyancy also changes.

Buoyancy compensator (BC): ALL DIVERS use some sort of BC while diving. The diver with no exposure suit and nothing other than a tank/regulator/harness is using their lungs as a BC. A corollary to this is that a neutrally buoyant diver that becomes unconscious and stops breathing will start to sink as soon as air escapes the lungs.

The direction a diver travels is simple vector physics and is the addition of all horizontal forces and vertical forces. At swimming speeds and with a typical scuba configuration the hydrodynamic forces (lift) are inconsequential.

Horizontal trim is when the propulsive force (fins) is in a horizontal line with the divers CG. Head-up trim is when the propulsive force is below the CG, and head-down trim is when the propulsive force is above the CG.

THEREFORE: The diver in:
1. Horizontal trim has only a horizontal vector when they kick. They move only straight forward. If they are also neutrally buoyant the diver will neither ascend or descent with kicking.
2. Head up trim has both a horizontal vector and a vertical vector when they kick. They will move both forward and upward unless they have a compensating downward force. This downward force is produced by being negatively buoyant. When they stop swimming they drift down. The greater the head-up trim the more negatively buoyant the diver needs to be to swim at a stable depth.
3. Head-down trim also has both a horizontal vector and a vertical vector (in this case a downward one) when they kick. This diver will move both forward and downward unless there is a compensating upward force. This force is produced by being positively buoyant. If the diver stops swimming they will drift upwards.

A diver in horizontal trim (CG and CB co-located) can move into any position and stay stable in that position unless an outside force moves them. A diver in a head-up or head-down trim (CG and CB in different spots) has to work at staying in any other orientation. As they change position the diver/gear complex rotates around the CG and this either raises or lowers the CB which in turn changes the air volume in the BC(s) and makes that position unstable. Unchecked this diver will either drift up or drift down. Since air will move inside an airspace (and change the CB) if not prevented by the design (the dry suit being the most dramatic) this is a dynamic condition. The closer to the surface the diver is, the more a small change in orientation will have on changing volume. So this effect is more pronounced closer to the surface.

A diver in a head-up trim MUST be negatively buoyant to fin and stay at a given depth. If they stop finning they will sink. Certainly this diver can add a little air to a BC when they stop kicking, and remove the same volume when they resume – but that is a poor solution to an unnecessary problem.

Ergo, IMHO to be properly weighted you MUST be in proper (horizontal) trim. Let the discussion begin…
 
Yes you can.
Then please explain in more detail. It would be helpful if you can explain where you think my reasoning is either wrong or incomplete. If you simply mean that a properly weighted diver can be in any orientation while not finning I have included that, or if you mean that a properly weighted diver can swim in a head-up or head-down position if they want to change depth that is also included and not my point.
 
Proper weighting refers to the amount of weight you need ... proper trim is determined by where you put the weight. You can most certainly be properly weighted and be out of trim ... and in fact, I'd say it's a fairly common problem.

One of the ways I test for proper weight distribution (i.e. proper trim) is to have the diver stop and completely relax while hovering ... no motion at all. What happens? If they go feet down, they need to move some weights upward. If head down, they need to move weights downward. If they want to "roll" one way or another, weights may need to be distributed forward on one side or the other. These can all occur even when the diver is wearing the appropriate amount of weight ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Then please explain in more detail. It would be helpful if you can explain where you think my reasoning is either wrong or incomplete. If you simply mean that a properly weighted diver can be in any orientation while not finning I have included that, or if you mean that a properly weighted diver can swim in a head-up or head-down position if they want to change depth that is also included and not my point.

To be honest, I didn't read your entire post yet, because I was on my way out. When I have time to do so, I'll comment on it in greater detail.

The short answer is that while trim and weighting may complement each other, they are still independent of each other. One example of this is moving a tank higher or lower in the band to change from head/up head/down or horizontal attitude. There is no actual weight change, but the placement of the weight can have a profound effect on trim.

So, even when weighted correctly, the improper placement can adversely affect trim. <<~~~ This statement is the reason I said "Yes."
 
You can be properly weighted and be out of trim; however, if you are out of trim AND KICKING, you cannot be truly NEUTRAL. Properly weighted is one thing; being neutrally buoyant is something else. Neutral means that you have properly compensated for any excess gas and any suit compression.

If you are not kicking, you can be both properly weighted and neutral in any darned position you want. However, if your fins are aimed down and you move them, you will move upward; if they are aimed up and you move them, you will move down. If you don't want movement in the water column, you have to counter the fin movement with another force, which generally means being something other than neutral.
 
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. . .
1. Horizontal trim has only a horizontal vector when they kick. They move only straight forward. If they are also neutrally buoyant the diver will neither ascend or descent with kicking.
2. Head up trim has both a horizontal vector and a vertical vector when they kick. They will move both forward and upward unless they have a compensating downward force. This downward force is produced by being negatively buoyant. When they stop swimming they drift down. The greater the head-up trim the more negatively buoyant the diver needs to be to swim at a stable depth.
3. Head-down trim also has both a horizontal vector and a vertical vector (in this case a downward one) when they kick. This diver will move both forward and downward unless there is a compensating upward force. This force is produced by being positively buoyant. If the diver stops swimming they will drift upwards.
. . .

Isn't this equivalent to what TS&M said?

Are others getting too hung up on your term "properly weighted"? Regardless of what "properly weighted" may mean, it's my understanding that what you and TS&M said is correct.

The "Six Skills" book discusses trim in terms of pitch, roll and yaw. Nice physics analysis in your original post, but are you reinventing the wheel here?
 
A diver in horizontal trim (CG and CB co-located) can move into any position and stay stable in that position unless an outside force moves them. A diver in a head-up or head-down trim (CG and CB in different spots) has to work at staying in any other orientation. As they change position the diver/gear complex rotates around the CG and this either raises or lowers the CB which in turn changes the air volume in the BC(s) and makes that position unstable. Unchecked this diver will either drift up or drift down. Since air will move inside an airspace (and change the CB) if not prevented by the design (the dry suit being the most dramatic) this is a dynamic condition. The closer to the surface the diver is, the more a small change in orientation will have on changing volume. So this effect is more pronounced closer to the surface.

Ok, I finally took the time to read through your entire post. You answered your own question in the above paragraph. It's not the amount of weight, but rather the placement of the weight that causes you to be in a head up/head down attitude.
 
Being

  • In trim
  • Neutral
  • Properly weighted

are complementary factors. However, they are not dependent factors.

E.g., it is possible to be neutral without being properly weighted. Or, properly weighted, and not be neutral.


The OP is well stated and reasoned, in that it is spot-on for a diver that is not neutral. However there is a bit of thought crossover between "properly weighted" and "neutral", which is what the replies here are addressing.


All the best, James
 
Density is different from center of mass.

Thus it is possible to be neutrally buoyant (=proper weighting) but not have horizontal trim.
 

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