Can a certified cave diver escort a non cave diver

[sea_ledford]

I would push back a bit on this,
while I agree, that people that do the recoveries do not want to do them, (death is tragic,)

But It tends to make some of them more well known and gives status, and probably in more then one instance made them money in the long run.
Also people like a challenge, and something different
For example, Dave shaw did not have to recovered a years old body at aprox 1000ft deep.

So your example is a person that thought they were hot stuff, attempted a recovery dive for "closure for the family" (but the team later admitted it was just because of hubris), and died in the process? Along with his buddy that barely survived an inner ear bends hit?

Not sure that is a good example for you.

How about this; do you know who recovered Agnes Milowka? By your argument whoever it was should be famous for it, since she was famous for getting into very tight restrictions, and died by getting stuck in one. Someone had to squeeze back in there to pull her out.

 

[NW Dive Dawg]

What frustrates me about this discussion and hundreds more like it on a variety of topics is the assumption that nothing is worth dying for.

That death is never an acceptable outcome.

As I see it, we all die, and we should be able to choose which activities we are willing to risk our lives to do. I am only really into activities that can get me killed, the rest don't seem worth doing.

I hope you make it to 1000 posts, and have no family or friends that might grieve for you.

I know that I wanted to stay off of the Cave Diver forum......but this came up today as a "New Post" so I naturally had to read it. As unpopular as it may be to the cave diving community , I can actually understand what I believe Cthippo is trying to say...

I think that at least a part of the reason that cave divers dive caves is that they either love or are enticed with the fact that it is challenging, intense, dangerous and requires extensive training, equipment and planning.....and that it is risky business that most humans would never attempt. I think that's just the nature of some humans to maybe want to push limits and challenge themselves. Kinda like mountain / rock climbing or skydiving or solo sailing around the world....etc..

I think that if there was a total and 100% failsafe where at any time, anywhere, in a cave dive, or skydive or mountain climb...... that the participant could just push a simple "Easy" button and be "beamed" back to the safety of their living room couch.....that it would totally detract from the allure and attraction of the adventure and challenge that many of us crave.

What I very much believe is that the folks who just do it and don't feel the need to talk about it, or brag about it, or seek any accolades for it, or even mention it..... are the real true searchers..... Just my opinion.

PS...... If any of you have not seen the "Bio / Documentary" entitled "The Alpinist" which is the story of Marc-André Leclerc..... I guarantee it is a solid must see and a reminder that we need to be appreciative of our own choices as well as others choices in life. Cheers.

 

[Johnoly]

.... name recognition, which translates it to some form of monetary no matter how small and how much you dont want it.

I've done body recoveries in the ocean,it's not fun nor fame nor funds.

We're a community of divers. Even if you dislike a diver,,when they are in bad trouble, you go and help-no questions asked. When you see divers here post about lost items they recovered and try to find the owner with zero expectation of money,they are doing it because it's the Right Thing to Do. Same with recoveries. Not everyone will help do the Right Thing. Dive Karma is the sum of a person's actions and usually decides their dive fate in future.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I think that at least a part of the reason that cave divers dive caves is that they either love or are enticed with the fact that it is challenging, intense, dangerous and requires extensive training, equipment and planning.....and that it is risky business that most humans would never attempt.

I can only speak for myself, but I dive caves because they’re beautiful. Some also have interesting animals, such as blind fish. The geology can also be fascinating. And sometimes archaeology. Basically, things to see. Same as the reasons I dive in the sea. If diving of any sort could be made safer, simpler or preferably both, I’d make it so in a heartbeat. Please—give me an Easy button. Give me gills. I have no desire to complicate my diving or take risks any more than necessary to see the cool stuff I want to see. If diving in the sea or caves were as dangerous as it was before the training agencies figured out how to bring these things to the masses I would probably not be a diver. Cave diving takes more training, equipment, concentration, etc., than puttering around a coral reef, but in the end it’s just another flavor of diving, and like any diving, I do what I have to to mitigate the risks. That’s all.

 

[boulderjohn]

I think that at least a part of the reason that cave divers dive caves is that they either love or are enticed with the fact that it is challenging, intense, dangerous and requires extensive training, equipment and planning.....and that it is risky business that most humans would never attempt. I think that's just the nature of some humans to maybe want to push limits and challenge themselves. Kinda like mountain / rock climbing or skydiving or solo sailing around the world....etc..

I wrote an article some years ago on what I believed to be the reason some people are drawn to technical diving, including cave diving. Sadly, that brilliantly-written article was lost when my website transferred.

In brief, I believe that the answer is a psychological trait called achievement motivation, first identified in 1938. To be brief and overly simplistic, when people who score high on a Need for Achievement (Nach) test take up an activity, they can never be content to participate at a low or even medium level of quality. They have to perceive themselves to be an upper level performer, or they cannot be satisfied. For them, the work it takes to get to those upper levels is in itself rewarding. When they perform at that higher level, they find satisfaction knowing deep down inside that most participants in that activity cannot do what they are doing.

I don't believe a sense of danger is involved. I was a trimix instructor, and I am a certified cave diver, but I have never felt I was doing anything particularly dangerous on a dive. The preparation required to put me at that level of performance made me believe that what I was doing was very reasonably safe.

 

[boulderjohn]

Why dive in caves? What I have seen is that there are two kinds of people.

• People who feel a sense of awe and beauty in a cave and who, upon seeing any kind of swim-through structure, simply have to go through it.
• People who don't.

I can't account for the difference. You either want to do it, or you don't. There is no shame in being in either camp.

 

[Rilelen]

For folks interested, there's been a lot of good research in psychology and behavioral economics on why folks are drawn to cave diving, mountaineering, and other challenging/technical activities...Loewenstein's "Because It Is There: The Challenge of Mountaineering...for Utility Theory" is a nice (if somewhat older) intro to this work.

 

[oya]

I think that at least a part of the reason that cave divers dive caves...

I can only speak for myself...

Upwards of 90% of the folks I find myself chatting with in the parking lots around here...

"Because they're pretty."

That's why I, myself, cave dive. I never thought I'd enjoy it - I'm claustrophobic, you see? But I got talked into going and taking a look and it was pretty and yaddayaddayadda I moved to Mexico and cave dive full time.

My wife cave dives because it's pretty. Why I know our friends and so many of our peers and colleagues do. My students... they're usually hooked by the beauty during a cavern tour they did on a whim a few years ago and are back because they wanted to see more.

There's an outlier or two who get REALLY excited by techniques or special boltsnaps or whatever. But mostly...

Why dive in caves? What I have seen is that there are two kinds of people.

• People who feel a sense of awe and beauty in a cave and who, upon seeing any kind of swim-through structure, simply have to go through it.
• People who don't.

Yep.

 

[lermontov]

Why dive in caves? What I have seen is that there are two kinds of people.

• People who feel a sense of awe and beauty in a cave and who, upon seeing any kind of swim-through structure, simply have to go through it.
• People who don't.

I can't account for the difference. You either want to do it, or you don't. There is no shame in being in either camp.

I think those options are far too narrow -there are a multitude of complex motivations that cause people to do any sort of risk associated activity -if it wasn't diving it would be something else

.Loewenstein's "Because It Is There: The Challenge of Mountaineering...for Utility Theory" is a nice (if somewhat older) intro to this work.

this is a good starting point but generally Ive seen that those who push the boundaries are usually highly motivated, intelligent and tend to be very task oriented.

were a complex mix and facing our fears and challenges is as much an inward journey as it is about the activity itself. As I say to one of my diving friends 'the path to Everest is littered with once highly motivated individuals"

theres something immensley satisfying about doing a deep dive and surfacing within one or two minutes of the dive plan. It feels like all the training and time and energy you put into your divecraft is justified

 

[Tigerpaw]

Also, your thread title does not say the dive leader is an instructor, only that he is cave certified. That has led to some confusion and angst.

Actually the title is correct, let me explain. My actual certification training started on Monday. Sunday morning I had free, so I was able to find someone to dive with recreationally. At the time of the post, I had assumed my guide was just a certified diver, however I later found out he was indeed an instructor. When Monday came around I was in the official course and by then this thread took a life of its own. I have been so busy training and studying that I haven't really paid much attention to this thread until now. Today is my last day of training, I will post my experiences. Oh and by the way, we did venture into cave territory, so I did get a small sample of it. It was inadvertently, ........by definition it's a cave dive when you lose the overhead natural light. I was so focused on running the reel and looking around and being amazed and having fun that I lost track of the distance traveled and i went into that dark zone. My instructor signaled me and we turned back. That mistake was a lessen learned that in cavern or cave you have to pay attention and be aware of your surroundings and depth. If you don't, you may die. I still had a great time and learned a lot.