Can a certified cave diver escort a non cave diver

[MSargeant]

I think that at least a part of the reason that cave divers dive caves is that they either love or are enticed with the fact that it is challenging, intense, dangerous and requires extensive training, equipment and planning.....and that it is risky business that most humans would never attempt. I think that's just the nature of some humans to maybe want to push limits and challenge themselves. Kinda like mountain / rock climbing or skydiving or solo sailing around the world....etc..

My motivation for taking Cave1(RAID) is:
1.) I want to see some cool wet rocks.
2.) The skillset + attention to detail will filter down into the rest of my diving and reinforce stuff I teach to future students
3.) I want some peace & quiet

This thread has been enthralling.


'Grats to the OP for passing Cavern and Sidemount, enjoy the rest of your journey!

 

[Tigerpaw]

Tell us how that course went? How many dives, skills, drills? Cost? Academics?

And here is my Cavern Review!

I decided to pursue a PADI Cavern Certification so I planned a 5 day trip and padded recreational dives before and after my certification. I arrived in town Saturday night, got settled in and early Sunday morning I was off to meet my guide who is a certified Cavern and Cave Instructor. It was early and raining and slightly cold so we were the only ones at Paradise Springs. We donned our gear, did our safety checks and briefs and away we went. I will confess, seeing the entrance into the abyss made me a bit nervous but as soon as we crossed the threshold the nervousness gave way to amazement! I was surprised at how clear the water was, and I was also astonished at the different fossils and natural structures. Turning around and seeing that light blue turquoise color at the cavern entrance from the inside was an amazing site to see! After we finished our dive, we went off to Blue Grotto where we did two dives AND I got a chance to see Cecil the turtle sunbathing! I did three dives that day, it allowed me to relax and to get familiar with caverns. These were purely recreational dives, we didn’t do any line work or skills.

The next day on Monday was the big day, training day! I meet my instructor and prior to entering the water, he looked at my setup. He took the time to streamline my BCD for cavern diving by securing anything that is a drag or entanglement hazard. So now I can dive recreational or technical with my BCD. His approach is to make the best with what you have and then make upgrades as you progress. Afterwards we hop in the pool and he observes me then he did the most shocking thing,.........he removed ALL of my weights. Surprisingly I was able to descend and maintain buoyancy with zero weights! Afterwards we worked line drills in the pool, then got out the pool and worked line drills again and again. After doing line drills we loaded up the truck and did the 2 hr drive to Ginnie Springs. During the drive we did a review of the material. We had two additional divers with us, one was a cave diver, who tagged along to assist and the other diver had started the Cavern course but had to drop out due to a non diving injury. He was tagging along in preparation of restarting his certification. My instructor told me that having the extra divers gives him the opportunity to better observe and provide feedback.

I pride myself on being a good planner so when planning for this trip I knew the water temp was around 70-72 degrees year round. Based on my log book entries my 3mm wet suit with a 2mm undergarment top is sufficient for me at depth and it was. HOWEVER I did NOT take into account the air temps. Early morning temps were in the 40's AND there was a slight breeze. Can you say popsicle?

After we check in at Ginnie Springs, we do our safety brief and get geared up. We hop in the water, do our buddy/safety checks and away we go. To my surprise with zero weights I actually did submerge. We dropped to the entrance of the cavern which was at aprox 25ft and proceeded to run lines into and out of the cavern. The three of us took turns alternating being the reel diver, the 2nd diver and 3rd diver while the instructor looked on. We used the rule of thirds to determine turn around pressure, so whoever reached it first would turn the dive. The cave diver started first as the reel diver and away we went. He took us through some tight places but it was not as bad as I thought. On this run I was the 2nd diver, with this being my first training dive I was focused on keeping up which I did. However during the debrief, it was pointed out that I did not help the reelman and I didn't check back with the 3rd diver to ensure he was ok. I was so laser focused on keeping up that I forgot about my duties as the 2nd diver. So on the next dive, I would repeat as the 2nd diver and this time I did a better job and for the rest of the week I had no issues. Finally it was my turn as the reelman, I successfully ran the reel in and out of the cavern. Upon reaching turn around pressure we returned to the surface did our debrief.

End of Training Day 1

Day 2 we went to Peacock Springs! Today it was just three of us as the cave diver had to leave. So after the brief we did line drills, then we did them again and then one more time for good measure. During one of silt out drills my instructor tied an extra line to ours just ahead of me to see how I would react. I reacted correctly by keeping track of our line and by communicating to my buddy. So far I’m doing ok. On another silt out drill I felt a tug, turns out I had gotten entangled. I signaled my buddy to halt then I traced out the entanglement and cleared it. I had thought my instructor had did it but he didn’t, it happened naturally. My backup light had legitimately gotten tied up with the line but to my credit I had successfully troubleshot the issue. Had a great day of training and I thought I was finished. My instructor told me, he’d like to do some more training on the 3rd day, which was supposed to be my recreational day. He was pleased with everything except for my tieoff’s and my finning. While I was slightly disappointed, I understood and didn’t hesitate to change out.

At each surface interval I was shaking like a leaf. My instructor was concerned and I think he was on the verge of calling the dives but I told him I was fine and mentioned that while at depth I was not shaking, it was the air temp. End of Training Day 2

On the final day we go to Manatee Springs – Catfish Hotel. This is it! The other diver had left so it was just the instructor and I. We did two dives. I finally GOT IT!!! The issue I had with tie off’s was that I made the mistake of watching a lot of YouTube videos. YouTube has been helpful but you have to be careful at what you watch and implement. I had memorized and committed to muscle memory the incorrect method and it took a while for me to get the proper technique ingrained. So after much practice, I was able to rectify it and finally get it right! As for the finning, I had my legs straight INSTEAD of being bent at a 90 degree angle. With my legs extended they slightly sunk and as a result I was stirring up the silt. Once I bent my knees to 90 degrees I didn’t kick up any silt. End of Training Day 3.

So on the last day I head to the shop, we review the final exam and I ace it. We chatted for a bit and he gave me some excellent feedback on what I did correctly and what I need to keep working on. He also mentioned some gear recommendations one of which is eventually retiring my BCD and going with a BP/W setup and new fins. He encouraged me to keep diving and practicing at my local lake. I truly had a great time and learned a lot and am looking forward to going back next year. And I will be better prepared for surface weather! LOL

FYI, I did 3 recreational dives and 7 training dives that week!

 

[Antonios (Holy Diver)]

In my opinion, anyone ....... at anytime...... can dive anywhere they want as long as the site is not under the legal control of others.

How is that viable? Can a PADI AOW/EAnx certified diver (just like me) dive in a single cylinder, recreational configuration at the Britannic and come back alive?

 

[Lorenzoid]

How is that viable? Can a PADI AOW/EAnx certified diver (just like me) dive in a single cylinder, recreational configuration at the Britannic and come back alive?

He didn't specify coming back alive. He simply believes, apparently as a matter of principle, that no laws should exist that bar an adult from taking whatever risk they wish so long as it doesn't impact others (which, it has been argued, is not the case where rescuers are involved).

 

[mdwalter]

How about this; do you know who recovered Agnes Milowka? By your argument whoever it was should be famous for it, since she was famous for getting into very tight restrictions, and died by getting stuck in one. Someone had to squeeze back in there to pull her out.

One of them was Dr. Richard Harris, famous diver for reasons other than cave rescue, but it seems only he, Limestone Coast Superintendent Trevor Twilley, and the other CDAA divers who were there know for sure who participated.

 

[tursiops]

One of them was Dr. Richard Harris, famous diver for reasons other than cave rescue, but it seems only he, Limestone Coast Superintendent Trevor Twilley, and the other CDAA divers who were there know for sure who participated.

No "tall poppies" in that group!

 

[NauticalNick]

That’s very egalitarian view. It’s easy to have that view when you don’t have any skin in the game. People without cave training died in caves at a very high rate. Luckily training has solved that otherwise there may not be any caves that it was legal to dive in.

Very American, "Freedom, Freedom, Freedom" view that just quite simply doesn't care about anyone else or social order. If untrained people do dives and hurt / kill themselves, outside of it being tragic, it also negatively impacts everyone else if those dives sites or closed and more negative press is brought to the sport.

 

[mdwalter]

No "tall poppies" in that group!

Had to Duck Duck Go that one (wonder if that will catch on as a verb like "Googling"). But yeah, I guess the rest of them agreed to remain humble and anonymous. Meanwhile, 12.5 years later, Agnes herself is more well-known than ever.

Tall poppy syndrome - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[BoundForElsewhere]

Very American, "Freedom, Freedom, Freedom" view that just quite simply doesn't care about anyone else or social order. If untrained people do dives and hurt / kill themselves, outside of it being tragic, it also negatively impacts everyone else if those dives sites or closed and more negative press is brought to the sport.

I get it but there are plenty of Canadian MAGA folk who hold that same homogeneous ideology.

You all need to bring back Kids in the Hall.

 

[Seaweed Doc]

Tangential, but since it's ScubaBoard specifically and the internet generally, here we go:

What do folks who ARE experts think about old guys (like me) who had a sort of cave training or deco training 40 years ago when certified? Maybe they got a lot of experience before the modern system of cave and tech certifications existed, or maybe not.

For example, my YMCA Open Water course taught us to take our backpacks off and pass them through restrictions ahead of us, then put them back on. And have a line to get out with, and a few other minor niceties. I may be mis-remembering badly, but it seems like a possible final exam question involved what to do if the cabin on the wreck you're diving gets silted out. (Find your line and crawl out as I recall was the advice back then. Maybe use bubbles to orient. I'm vaguely recalling some lighting advice as well.)

We were also given US Navy deco tables and taught to use them. The expectation was that we might do single-tank, no redundancy deco dives. Of course, we were told "you'll die at 200' from ox tox," but that was the only ultimate depth at that point. Obviously, there's a lot wrong with this. But we were trained and may have gone out deco diving for years.

I was going to write out what kind of diving I've done (and am comfortable doing today) that would not be "approved" under today's standards (due to lack of new certifications) but was acceptable at the time I was trained. But my case isn't really the issue, it's more the general question of "what if you were trained to standards of the day?"

Several specific questions:

1. What if you were trained to (e.g.) to deco or wreck penetrations way back when, and did a lot of it. Maybe picked up some tricks as techniques and equipment improved. Assuming it doesn't put you at risk of liability, would you be comfortable with diving with this person?

2. What if the old codger has self-limits that seem pretty well-informed? (E.g., only penetrating sanitized wrecks with multiple obvious and large exits at any location, or only doing "light deco on air" dives? And having redundancy.) Humor me here, and assume that these self-limits are not dangerous if evaluated with modern knowledge, but the diver is not appropriately certified. And let's wave the magic wand and get rid of liability issues.

I'd take it as a given that if you were taught 40 year old deco techniques and never did deco dives for 40 years, you probably shouldn't dive the Andrea Doria tomorrow.

I suppose I'm asking the "experience vs. certification" question, but with the tweak that the diver in question may have had appropriate certifications at the time but would not be sufficient today. (Cue "When I had to swim uphill in the snow to SCUBA school" stories.)

I'd note I'm just musing here. I don't have a strong opinion, but there are enough of us out there in this category I wonder how this is regarded. Not looking for approval, and don't care about condemnation. Fire away!