Calling a dive

[drrich2]

Sometimes different understandings lead to conflict where not so much need be. Wookie mentioned running low on air isn't an 'issue' in his opinion; I'm guessing it would fall under that heading to some. I doubt anyone outright resents or 'blames' another diver for having, oh, say, a heart attack at depth and shortening the dive! So there are 'issues' (minor; low in air, octopus free-flows, buoyancy hassles and underweighted, excess anxiety under the conditions, etc...) and then there are issues (medical crises) where it may be needful for the boat to head back to port, etc...

What Dogbowl brought up is interesting; often when people refer to calling a dive, they mean on the boat where your personal decision to not dive mainly affects you (hence the conventional wisdom at one extreme that anyone can thumb any dive and be unchallenged). When you're underwater on a group dive where that doesn't hold, expectations will differ (i.e.: your fellow paying customers except a 'good reason' (whatever that is)). BoulderJohn's post was a bit of a surprise - this part:

During the subsequent lawsuit (settled early), an expert witness for the plaintiff argued that when someone thumbs a dive, everyone on the dive is expected to end the dive at that time. He produced language to that effect in a manual.

I hope an expert for the other side shot that down (though he said it settled early)! Unless cave diving standards on this are much different from mainstream recreational (maybe they are? I wouldn't know), it should be no surprise if someone were escorted to the entrance, then left to their own devices unless signaling a need for more help - assuming they were all certified, nobody a student or perhaps customer who paid a guide?

While ascending from a dive to the surface alone in a benign open water environment isn't universal, it is common. For someone advanced enough to competently cave dive? Wow.

Richard.

 

[Gareth J]

We are straying off the OP.
If the moderators want to move this OK.


The issue about diving solo, aborting dives, when to thumb a dive, when to cancel diving is difficult, and sometimes contentious, sometimes very straight forward.

Cancelling diving.
This apt, having just had notification from the trip organiser for this weekend that the skipper has cancelled the diving. The skipper cancelling means we get our charter money back, but not the money for the booked accommodation.

Normal UK booking rules mean that if the skipper cancels we get our charter money back, if we had cancelled we wouldn't!

Earlier this year, we had a weeks diving. Mid week if was very windy, the skipper was planning to take us out (rough crossing) and have us dive in the lee of the Island, (a backup site). We elected not to do a 2nd class dive in rough conditions - we still paid for the days charter, we cancelled.

There is often a financial issue to cancelling diving. Both for the skipper and the group.
We don't book with skippers that will never cancel. The good skippers will cancel. Some skippers have gone back to taking fisherman, they don't need the weather to be as kind for fisherman than they do for divers.

Aborting a dive
Some of you will have seen my comment in an earlier thread;

"It's better to be on the boat wishing you where in the water, than in the water wishing you where on the boat."

I strongly believe in this.

I am however very aware, that there are pressures.
When diving with new divers I always reinforce the point that they can abort if they want to, for any reason, during the briefing.
With more experienced divers I don't.

I have spent over 10 years wanting to dive the Scilly Isles. This year I finally made it. We had a great week.
I missed one dive, I choose not to get in, having kit problems. (As it turned out, I did have a fault on the CCR, good call on my part.) My buddy dropped in and made a three. His call, he was experienced, we all know each other, he had paid his money for the trip.

Diver Seperation
The usual rule is;

"If you loose your buddy, look around for a minute or so, then ascend."

On a trip earlier this year, in poor visibility, my buddy and I Iost each other (we where both concentrating on cameras). We both did the above. We both dive with redundancy, but both ascended. We both considered carrying on the dive.
A mix of reasons, training, procedure, and the fact that the dive wasn't great anyway.
A dive later in the year, a different buddy and I separated, we both tagged on another 10 minutes before surfacing, partly because the dive was good, partly expecting to see each other, partly because we both had enough redundant gas to do the dive multiple times.

Solo Diving
I have dived on my own over the years, both planned and un-planned.

As an Instructor, I have been in first, put the trapeze in and checked the shot before the lead instructor and students have entered the water. I was more than comfortable with that, and enjoyed the solitude at the start.

I remember joining a group that did deep(er) diving on the south coast. My first dive with the group, I dived with one of the established members. I had run times (5min, 30min, and 35mins on the bottom), the plan was a 30minute dive, the options to extend to 35minutes. Conditions where good, and we pushed out to the longer time. We where back on the shot, and I signalled up and started up the shot. When I looked back, my buddy had moved back onto the wreck, I signalled up again, he gave me an OK, then didn't come back to the shot. There where others still on the wreck. I left and started my ascent, questioning if I should have gone back. He caught me up on the shot later. When we got back on the boat, he came over and apologised. He was in the wrong, he wanted to push on, even tho he new my gas / runtime restrictions.
He new he was in the wrong.
One of the group came up to me later and apologised for the rest of the group, I shouldn't have been put in that position. Especially when I was on 'trial' to see if I would fit in. The fact that I didn't make a big noise about it, but had run my agreed plan, and kept my displeasure between my buddy and myself had been noticed. I was accepted on the team for future trips.

When I was gaining experience on CCR, I had three initial rules, no more than 5 minutes of compulsory decompression, no diving on my own, nothing over 30m (100ft). I took a place on a boat for the weekend. I was buddy up with a CCR diver (CCR divers where unusual at this time), I told him I wouldn't run more than 5minutes of deco'. We did the dive, I got to 5minutes of deco, and signalled time to leave, he waved me goodbye, watched me get the DSMB off and start my ascent, then he carried on his dive. I would have been happier if I had known that was his intention when we got in. It was the first time I was in the water on my own on a CCR.

There are often competing pressures. Buddies, conditions, opportunity. The biggest issue is diving with people you don't know, mentally, I take it that I am on my own!

Gareth

 

[KenGordon]

There is a world of difference between a person low on gas and a person having a serious issue. In one case getting to the surface solves the problem. In the other an evacuation might be required. That (mostly) cannot be done with divers still in the water (obviously there are circumstances with multiple boats, shore diving etc when it can but they are not the point Wookie is making).

If an evacuation is prevented by someone continuing a dive dispite a recall then they are putting the victim at greatly increased risk.

On the other hand, and I think this is what people above are talking about, if someone in a group is low on gas and has to surface, or for whatever reason (or no reason) want up then up they go. If an operator says that that means everyone should go up then they are a bad choice if you don’t like that deal.

 

[KenGordon]

Mods, I think you should split this off to a thread about calling dives. As it stands we are implicitly criticising the deceased when I don’t think that is anyone’s intention.

 

[Gareth J]

Mods, I think you should split this off to a thread about calling dives. As it stands we are implicitly criticising the deceased when I don’t think that is anyone’s intention.

I agree with Ken, a secondary debate has started, which could do with its own thread.

For the record, I am not criticising Lex. I am also not critical of the boat, or its crew. In my view, this was an accident. Diving at the extremes of the sport have higher risks, and the individual involved is far more aware of this that the average 'sports diver'. In a similar way that summiting Everest is significantly different to going for a hike on Snowden (Welsh mountain).

Gareth

 

[KevinNM]

I know nothing about this case other than what is posted above, however- they were a buddy team. As compared to an unrelated group of divers that just happened to share a boat ride and probably didn't even enter the water together or at the same time. I'd think that matters?

If it's the case I remember, it was instructor and a paying student and a tag-along . The tag-along had an issue, and was escorted to what was thought to be a safe point. It turned out that something went horribly wrong between when they left her and her getting out of the water. Which convinced me that I want to see people get out of the water before I go back down If I don't get out with them.

 

[sunnyboy]

Sorry everyone, allow me to explain myself better.

I was talking about somewhat more technical dives, where the issues are gear related and often caused by divers who refuse to maintain their gear and so are always calling dives because something invariably fails 10min into the dive. We could have 6 divers, 3 groups of two, and yet all 6 are "expected" by the diver with the issue to call the dive.

And yea, I know the obvious solution.

 

[KenGordon]

Sorry everyone, allow me to explain myself better.

I was talking about somewhat more technical dives, where the issues are gear related and often caused by divers who refuse to maintain their gear and so are always calling dives because something invariably fails 10min into the dive. We could have 6 divers, 3 groups of two, and yet all 6 are "expected" by the diver with the issue to call the dive.

And yea, I know the obvious solution.

That is terrible, even worse than the case where an operator expects to handhold a bunch of novice divers.

But... How does this work, why does the diver expect the other ‘teams’ to abort their dive?

 

[boulderjohn]

If it's the case I remember, it was instructor and a paying student and a tag-along . The tag-along had an issue, and was escorted to what was thought to be a safe point. It turned out that something went horribly wrong between when they left her and her getting out of the water. Which convinced me that I want to see people get out of the water before I go back down If I don't get out with them.

You have the right case.

 

[Colliam7]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

This thread has been created, at the request of a number of posters, by splitting off relevant posts from an Accidents and Incidents thread about a specific event. The new thread is intended to be a place to discuss more general; issues involved in 'calling' a dive.

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