Buying a New Regulator

[Deep South Divers]

For what it's worth, I just had a Hogarthian reg set serviced at Extreme Exposure in High Springs - they, too, do in-house service, and since I know those guys and subscribe to a lot of their philosophies, I figured I'd give them a shot. I was just too busy to do my own service on that set of regs.

Flawless work, nicely done, and came back perfectly tuned - not over, and not under. I paid something like $180 (the reg set is worth about $1200) for everything, including parts and labor (no "warranty"). I'm thrilled with their service.

...So much so, in fact, that I just sent off two more sets for service. I usually do my own, but when business is good, ya gotta take advantage...

I recommend them.

 

[TGreene]

I haven't seen THAT much of a difference, Tim! Any stage usually costs around $150, shipped to my door.

Exactly, which equates to $600 for just the 4 regs.

For $600 you can get the 4 regs, all hoses, and an SPG though!

HOG Gear Doubles Reg Package - Dive Right In Scuba - Plainfield, IL

Just sayin!

 

[sean_nc]

By looking solely at the cost difference, you can buy the HOG in doubles for less that you could buy the Apeks for singles... Just something to consider when doing the math!

Yea, I guess I should have said HOG new or Apex used.

I haven't seen THAT much of a difference, Tim! I'm getting my Apeks regs from a dealer in Spain:

Any stage usually costs around $150, shipped to my door.

I recently purchased a Suunto D6 for about $675, too - close to half retail.

Yea, also on the list. No warranty so kind of like getting them used.

HOG = New, Service Kits online, great deal, hopefully around a long time.
Apex = Used, Great reputation, Service kits harder to get but availible, better resale, will be around, no free parts under warranty.

 

[Deep South Divers]

Yep, they've got a fantastic price... Part of the reason is because they sell factory direct, rather than from Spain...

See, that's why they'll thrive...

I don't know why the other manufacturers haven't figured this out yet... 'Guess they've gotta pay all of those guys to "distribute" the product and chase LDS owners around and keep them from marking the price down when the market mandates it...

 

[Deep South Divers]

Yea, also on the list. No warranty so kind of like getting them used.

Negative. New, in a box. Full manufacturer's warranty.

I think what you mean is, "no parts-for-life" deal. The truth is, NO regs have attached a "parts for life" deal... That's a concept made up by the LDS to get you to buy from them. Again, part of the problem with today's LDS.

ALL new regulators have a warranty - even if the salesman tells you that they don't. Federal law says that any new product sold in the US (regardless of whether or not the retailer is overseas) has a "warranty implied." That is, that the product will do what it is expected to do at time of purchase. Ask any US attorney - it's a big point in law school.

...But loser LDSs (not an insult - an identity based on which side of the fence they choose to be on) have taken on the practice of saying to people, "If you buy the regs from us and get them serviced here, we'll give you the parts needed for your regs (O-rings, seals, seats) for free." This shouldn't be a surprise... Typically, the manufacturer supplies many of these things free to the LDS, too... So it's only natural that they'd use the "freebie" to get you to purchase from them.

The labor, however, for annual service is not free, so typically they mark that up a bit to cover any costs that they do incur, like silicone and Christolube and Simple Green.

This "free parts for life" deal... People too ignorant to know any better have called this a "warranty." It is NOT a "warranty." It is a "free parts for life" deal, and whether you've got it or not, you still get charged for annual service. The manufacturer's warranty on the regs - whether you purchase from your LDS or not - is still in effect on all new regs, regardless. That's the law in the U.S.

...So the next time some 16 year-old Super Divemaster Extraordinaire with 17 dives to his name tells you that, "If you don't buy from a factory authorized shop and spend twice the amount that you would otherwise for these regs, they won't be under warranty," tell him that he's full of it, and that he's been misinformed, and that if he tells you that again, you're going to have him arrested under a "Breach of Implied Warranty of Merchantability" charge.

The sad thing is, they don't even know that they're committing a crime when they say something like that to you. It's become such a common practice anymore - and they've heard others say it so many times - that they don't even have any idea that it's not true, much less that it's actually a crime.

ALL new regulators - and for that matter, other scuba equipment, too - has a warranty from the manufacturer, regardless of what retailer you purchased it through. Period.

When you're paying $300 too much for a set of regulators, you've really got to wonder if the $20 in free parts annually would be worth the huge price difference.

 

[TGreene]

...So the next time some 16 year-old Super Divemaster Extraordinaire with 17 dives to his name tells you that, "If you don't buy from a factory authorized shop and spend twice the amount that you would otherwise for these regs, they won't be under warranty," tell him that he's full of it, and that he's been misinformed, and that if he tells you that again, you're going to have him arrested under a "Breach of Implied Warranty of Merchantability" charge.

The sad thing is, they don't even know that they're committing a crime when they say something like that to you. It's become such a common practice anymore - and they've heard others say it so many times - that they don't even have any idea that it's not true, much less that it's actually a crime.

Do you remember Minolta..? Neither does Nikon or Canon!

Simply put, Minolta played the price fixing game and lost big... Being a pro photographer (photojournalist) at the time however, I kind of felt like I was the one that was hosed the worst, because suddenly I was left sitting with about $30k in 35mm equipment, yet suddenly there was really no longer a company to support it. As a consumer, I'm interested in getting the best value for my dollar, and I don't want to get hosed again by some almighty and powerful mega-corporation that feels they they are above the law in regards to consumer affairs.

For those of you that don't remember the goings on in early 80's, it was Minolta that came from the rear of the pack by bringing new technology to the 35mm camera market. Auto-focus lenses and chip-based digital photography were the 2 biggies that set the stage. At one point I owned (3) of their highest rated Maxxum 9000-Pro bodies and numerous lenses which included both the 200mm and 600mm APO lenses as well as several bags full of other Minolta gear. I'm now happy with my Nikon gear, but I do honestly believe that it's nowhere near what my Maxxum 9000-Pro's were. Those babies were the only "advanced system" on the market that was truly designed for a photojournalist in the field, because if absolutely every electronic element (or all of the batteries) died, it could still be operated 100% manually like the workhorse Pentax K1000 or an old Canon A1 which all the "advanced system" Canon guys carried as a SHTF backup unit.

-Tim

 

[sean_nc]

Negative. New, in a box. Full manufacturer's warranty.

ALL new regulators have a warranty - even if the salesman tells you that they don't. Federal law says that any new product sold in the US (regardless of whether or not the retailer is overseas) has a "warranty implied." That is, that the product will do what it is expected to do at time of purchase. Ask any US attorney - it's a big point in law school.

Again good points.

The free parts deal is nice considering the (over)price of rebuild kits for the major brands if you can find them but not worth $300.

While there may technically have to be a warranty a company can make it more difficult to get it honored. ...like making you send it back to the european subsidiary.

Also doesn't mean a company won't tell you there's no warranty...

"All online companies that sell and make direct purchases of our product, like Leisure Pro are not an authorized SCUBAPRO UWATEC dealer and SCUBAPRO UWATEC equipment obtained through channels other than SCUBAPRO UWATEC Authorized Dealers does not carry the SCUBAPRO UWATEC Limited Lifetime/Limited Warranty. If you so choose to purchase SCUBAPRO UWATEC products online, the warranty will be voided."

 

[TGreene]

So why not just favor a company that says PLEASE BUY OUR REGS ONLINE, AND DON'T FORGET TO PICKUP A PARTS KIT OR 2 AS WELL..?

Nahhh, that's just way to easy!

 

[sean_nc]

So why not just favor a company that says PLEASE BUY OUR REGS ONLINE, AND DON'T FORGET TO PICKUP A PARTS KIT OR 2 AS WELL..?

Nahhh, that's just way to easy!

That's what I'm thinking.

Let's see. Apex and Scubapro have a good reputation with tech divers and have supported their regs for a long time. They just make it difficult and expensive.

The new guy on the block's got everything else going for him, performance, price, design, parts, etc.

I think I'll be going with the new guy.

 

[Deep South Divers]

"All online companies that sell and make direct purchases of our product, like Leisure Pro are not an authorized SCUBAPRO UWATEC dealer and SCUBAPRO UWATEC equipment obtained through channels other than SCUBAPRO UWATEC Authorized Dealers does not carry the SCUBAPRO UWATEC Limited Lifetime/Limited Warranty. If you so choose to purchase SCUBAPRO UWATEC products online, the warranty will be voided."

Yep, they can say that all they want, but what they're saying is illegal in the U.S. and no court of law will uphold that claim. The truth is, if they fail to honor a warranty because of the distribution channel it was purchased through (or any other reason), they can be found liable in a court of law for all kinds of damages, not to mention a new set of regs and attorney's fees.

Frankly, if that were to happen right about now (ScubaPro is seriously struggling financially), it could well put the company out of business. Don't think that Johnson Outdoors (the parent company) wouldn't cut them off in a heartbeat if they considered that branch of business gangrenous.

In the case of Leisurepro, it doesn't matter anyway... When I purchased a set of ScubaPro regs from them and had a problem with them A YEAR LATER (after having a local "factory authorized dealer" work on them and screwing them up royally), I received a full refund for the regulators. A YEAR LATER.

I promptly used the refund to purchase a set of ATX200/ATX200/ATX50 regs - which I usually work on myself. They're still in service and have dived thousands of dives flawlessly.

My point is that, even Leisurepro realizes that there's a problem with the Internet-phobic philosophy, and will honor an in-house warranty that surely beats anything that the manufacturer offers (or supposedly doesn't offer). Full replacement after a year of use? The best warranty I've ever seen!

Like Tim says, the solution is VERY simple. Purchase regulators from manufacturers that don't play head games. Edge/HOG is the first I've seen that truly offers the consumer a straight deal - complete with classes to teach you how to keep your life support at 100%... And the parts kits to make it happen. It's like a dream for those of us who have struggled for years wth corporations that feel that they are above the law and can control the marketplace.

Besides - let me be frank here - if you've ever opened up a ScubaPro reg and compared it side-by-side with a HOG reg, you'll see that there's a lot of plastic (they call it "composite" to make is sound advanced) where the HOG uses high-quality stainless steel. There's no question in my mind which I'd choose as life support.

Interestingly, had ScubaPro used metal innards instead of plastic in the original regs I purchased years ago, the "factory authorized" LDS probably wouldn't have screwed them up... And I'd have never exchanged them at Leisurepro for a set of Apeks and known any differently.

It is said that you reap what you sow. If ScubaPro's been lying to consumers and using sub-par parts in their life support systems for years, and then following it up with a refusal to follow the paradigm shift... That is, if they sow garbage... Guess what they're going to reap?

I see HOG as ScubaPro's Grim Reaper. AquaLung's not far behind - they've watched for years while ScubaPro has led the bullpoop game and followed suit every time they saw ScubaPro get away with it. The two marketing giants are two peas in a pod. I love Apeks regs, but it's like marrying Vinnie's sister - you're gonna have to deal with a really bad family to get what you want. Between the two of them, the scuba industry has been shadowed with "rules" and shady ideals that have put many Mom and Pop LDSs right into the drink. The LDSs didn't all get together and make up this idea of, "It's not under warranty..." They're just reiterating to the consumer what they've been told.

What a mess. History repeats itself... The oil barons, the phone company, Minolta, and this. Every time, the result is the same. You'd think that these people would learn and just play by the rules.

I, for one, will be applauding Edge/HOG on. Go, go, go!

Now make me a sealed diaphragm, coldwater-capable, nonturreted, solid first stage with pretty routing and a chrome finish, please - that can be used for singles or doubles. If you want, I'll even design it for you.