Buoyancy device recommendation

[diversteve]

removed

 

[BoltSnap]

Otherwise someone else is talking through their hat - whatever that means...

talk through your hat Meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

"talk through your hat UK informal
to talk about something without understanding what you are talking about:

Nothing of what he said made sense - he was talking through his hat."

And you have learned something today.

I don't have to prove you wrong, you have to prove your "through your hat" claims!!

 

[oszillodrom]

I dive very similarly to OP (mostly tropical, 3 mm suit...)

I have the DSS (Deep Sea Supply) Kydex/Steel Backplate (long pattern for me as I'm tall) and Torus 17 lbs wing

Pro-Fit Hybrid Kydex / Stainless Steel BackPlate, LONG PATTERN scuba

Torus 17, Full Circle Style Single Tank Wing W/ 30 mil bladder scuba

This setup packs light for travel (I believe it is under 3.5 kg / 7.7 lbs), is very streamlined in the water, rugged, comfortable, and I need 1 weight only with a 3 mil.

 

[mattia_v]

I haven't seen many user reviews on the new Hydros, and it's a very expensive piece of kit that seems to be 'solving' problems I don't see as even existing. I'm sure it's nice, but since I can buy several wings and different back plates and various weight integration solutions for that kind of money, and not have to deal with plastic clips, I don't see how it's a major advantage. I don't really see what unique features are worth 800 bucks that would help me with my diving.

You yourself haven't used one, apparently, and the fact your buddies like theirs says...what exactly? That they like it.

A BC (BP/W or otherwise) is essentially a very simple device. Bag of air, streamlined, with straps to attach it to you and to your tank. Integrated weight pockets if you like them. Let's look at those 'unique features', from the linked site

• Ultra Durable: Patented Injection Molded Monprene® Gel Harness is extremely resistant to UV, chemicals and abrasion. The fabric-free harness uses no velcro or zippers.

Webbing dries plenty quick for me, plenty comfortable, never felt the need for padding. Plenty of manufacturers provide quick-dry neutrally bouyant padding materials. Nice, but not ground-breaking.

• Instant Dry: Ideal for travel due to less water retention and lower post-dive weight.

My BC dries within a few hours.

• "BC-4-Life" Modular Design: Customizable to add/remove weight systems, straps and pouches. Extended lifespan due to simplified repairs. Virtually every component, including buckles, can be replaced without stitching.

Same as any BP/W. Modular by definition.

• 3D Ergonomic Design: Conforms to your body shape for maximum comfort.

I'd like a freedom plate, but my BP/W is very comfortable, so 'good enough'. For me, a solution looking for a problem.

• Lightweight: Advanced materials keep weight low.

So are many others. 3.5kg for my 30lb wing with trim pockets and large integrated weight pockets. drop the big weight pockets (unnecessary for tropical diving) and it's about 3.1-3.2 kg.

• Neutrally Buoyant: Near-Zero inherent buoyancy requires less lead, resulting in better buoyancy control and much more enjoyable diving.

My BP/W is a little negative. So even less weight. And a nice distribution of weight in the plate.

• Body Grip Gel: Prevents BC from shifting and riding up.

Is what my crotch strap is for.

• Dual-Compound Backplate: Provides the ultimate in stability and comfort. Single tank band system allows for easier assembly.

I like dual tank bands, adds more stability than any single band system I've used.

• Torso Flex Zone: Auto-adjusts to your torso length for excellent comfort and freedom of movement.

Solution looking for a problem. Backplates come in different lengths.

• Articulated Shoulder Straps: Allow straps to adjust to your body shape to achieve a snug fit.

Solution looking for a problem

• Kit-Up Assist: Holds shoulder straps open for easy donning.

Maybe nice, non-issue for me

• Cross-Flow Channel: Unrestricted internal airflow reduces air trapping for enhanced maneuverability and easy deflation at any angle

Never had an issue with a donut wing

• 2-Stage Inflation: Tri-bungee system controls air distribution to maintain a compact shape under water and high lift capacity at the surface.

Lots of bungeed wings in the world. Interestingly very few single tank wings that still feature them.

• Dorsal Weight-Wing: Anti-abrasion and instant dry. Optimal "Outboard" trim pockets.

Isn't this just marketing speak for 'back inflate with trim pockets'?

• Buckle Weight System: Simple, safe and reliable quick-release buckles offer a fixed location for easy one-hand operation.

I have a single buckle. It works. Can operate with one hand. One point of failure.

• Multi-Mount Accessory Matrix: Multiple D-Rings and mounting points for a knife + light + SMB + hoses + crotch strap and much more.

Have what I need. Plenty of accessory pockets from dozens of manufacutrers for standard 2" webbing

• Smart-Pack Design: Folding shoulder and waist straps pack into the wing, creating an unbelievably compact package for easy transport and storage.

Probably nice. I don't take my BP/W carry-on, and 2 full sets of gear break down and pack down neatly in a medium sizes hardshell samsonite. Works for me.

Please note, I'm not saying it's not a good product. I'm just saying it's a very expensive product that doesn't have any unique selling points to convince me it is superior to a simple backplate/wing. It may well be a bit more comfortable out of the water, particularly for people with a slighter build (my girlfriend struggles more with a BP/W, but that's mostly due to the weight, which is the same as what I need to carry although she's 2/3 my weight), but in the water, where it really matters? Dunno. Maybe the flexibility helps if you have back issues and a poorly fitted wing, for example. They also mention better fit for women and 'feeling like it's not there', but those are already features of a normal BP/W, if I'm to believe my girlfriend, who loves the 'free' feeling of the minimalist hog harnass and wing under water.

 

[diversteve]

removed

 

[stuartv]

I've learned you are unwilling or incapable of discussing this rationally.

Huh?

I can't see Scubapro's Hydros as a travel option. If you dive the full system - it must weigh over 10lbs - the shippable (boxed) weight is 11.86 lbs. Also it's $840 retail. If you leave 1/2 of it at home - which you can do, it seems silly since you get the same functionality in a $400 Lighthawk.

And they spent a lot of time/money engineering useless features like a 3-4 position vertical mount for the chest strap. Who changes theirs on a regular basis? In all fairness I haven't seen a Hydros in person but doubt I will ever bother. And I have a Platinum Reseller 4 miles away so easily could.

my .02...

You looked at a spec for the shippable boxed weight and concluded that the Hydros itself must weigh over 10 #s. How rational is that? I don't know much about the Hydros, but what I've gleaned so far suggests that it has bits that you could choose not to use and so you might have a very lightweight travel rig, but then for diving at home or where weight doesn't matter, use the extra bits to make the rig "better" (obviously, subjective). So, EVEN IF all the contents of the package weigh 10 #s (color me skeptical), that doesn't mean that any given configuration that you would use weighs that much. It's just not a rational conclusion to draw from the info given.

You dismissed the Hydros because it has multiple positions for the chest strap because, apparently, you don't change yours often? Personally, stuff like that changes enough on my rigs, when I go from a 3mm wetsuit to a drysuit with full undies that I just gave up and bought a separate BP/W so I can have one for warm water and one for cold water. Loosening the shoulder straps then moving all the bits on the shoulder straps and all the bits on the waist belt (because that gets shorter when you lengthen the shoulder straps) was annoying.

I have no interest in a Hyrdos for myself. I agree with the comments about being too expensive and not wanting plastic bits that can break. But, your arguments - with someone who has at least seen one in person - are just making you look a bit unreasonable and narrow-minded.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Huh?

You looked at a spec for the shippable boxed weight and concluded that the Hydros itself must weigh over 10 #s. How rational is that?

In the absence of actual weights for the goods, shipping weight less some estimate for the packaging is completely "rational" IMO. Manufacturers routinely strive to reduce the weight of packaging for the simple reason that freight costs have skyrocketed over the last decade. Packaging also costs money and does not add value to the end product, yet another motivation to keep packaging to a practical minimum.

~15% (2/12) would be substantially more that what a DSS complete rig requires for packaging. I'll weight one today when I get to the shop.

We are after all discussing scuba gear, which should be fairly robust. If the goods in question were crystal punch bowls It's easy to see the mass of the packaging exceeding the mass of the goods.

Tobin

 

[diversteve]

Burhan and Stuart,

It's pointless to continue this dicussion and counter productive to questions asked by the OP in the thread so I've removed my posts - if you'd like yours removed now also contact a moderator (but not me...)

Have a nice life...

 

[cool_hardware52]

Weight update.

Medium Stainless Steel DSS Back Plate
Entire Harness Kit (untrimmed webbing) Packaged in plastic bags with instructions
LCD 30 Wing with LP hose
1 Pair Cambands

Total Weight of goods 10.56 lbs

Packaged Ready for UPS pickup
Shipping carton
Padding
Tape, etc.

Total 11.60 lbs

Packaging 11.6-10.56 = 1.04 lbs.

I will be the first to admit that DSS packaging is very utilitarian, but an estimate for 1.5-2.0 lbs as a packaging allowance for a Scuba BC is well withing the bounds of rationality.

Tobin

 

[BoltSnap]

I haven't seen many user reviews on the new Hydros, and it's a very expensive piece of kit that seems to be 'solving' problems I don't see as even existing. I'm sure it's nice, but since I can buy several wings and different back plates and various weight integration solutions for that kind of money, and not have to deal with plastic clips, I don't see how it's a major advantage. I don't really see what unique features are worth 800 bucks that would help me with my diving.

You yourself haven't used one, apparently, and the fact your buddies like theirs says...what exactly? That they like it.

A BC (BP/W or otherwise) is essentially a very simple device. Bag of air, streamlined, with straps to attach it to you and to your tank. Integrated weight pockets if you like them. Let's look at those 'unique features', from the linked site

• Ultra Durable: Patented Injection Molded Monprene® Gel Harness is extremely resistant to UV, chemicals and abrasion. The fabric-free harness uses no velcro or zippers.

Webbing dries plenty quick for me, plenty comfortable, never felt the need for padding. Plenty of manufacturers provide quick-dry neutrally bouyant padding materials. Nice, but not ground-breaking.

• Instant Dry: Ideal for travel due to less water retention and lower post-dive weight.

My BC dries within a few hours.

• "BC-4-Life" Modular Design: Customizable to add/remove weight systems, straps and pouches. Extended lifespan due to simplified repairs. Virtually every component, including buckles, can be replaced without stitching.

Same as any BP/W. Modular by definition.

• 3D Ergonomic Design: Conforms to your body shape for maximum comfort.

I'd like a freedom plate, but my BP/W is very comfortable, so 'good enough'. For me, a solution looking for a problem.

• Lightweight: Advanced materials keep weight low.

So are many others. 3.5kg for my 30lb wing with trim pockets and large integrated weight pockets. drop the big weight pockets (unnecessary for tropical diving) and it's about 3.1-3.2 kg.

• Neutrally Buoyant: Near-Zero inherent buoyancy requires less lead, resulting in better buoyancy control and much more enjoyable diving.

My BP/W is a little negative. So even less weight. And a nice distribution of weight in the plate.

• Body Grip Gel: Prevents BC from shifting and riding up.

Is what my crotch strap is for.

• Dual-Compound Backplate: Provides the ultimate in stability and comfort. Single tank band system allows for easier assembly.

I like dual tank bands, adds more stability than any single band system I've used.

• Torso Flex Zone: Auto-adjusts to your torso length for excellent comfort and freedom of movement.

Solution looking for a problem. Backplates come in different lengths.

• Articulated Shoulder Straps: Allow straps to adjust to your body shape to achieve a snug fit.

Solution looking for a problem

• Kit-Up Assist: Holds shoulder straps open for easy donning.

Maybe nice, non-issue for me

• Cross-Flow Channel: Unrestricted internal airflow reduces air trapping for enhanced maneuverability and easy deflation at any angle

Never had an issue with a donut wing

• 2-Stage Inflation: Tri-bungee system controls air distribution to maintain a compact shape under water and high lift capacity at the surface.

Lots of bungeed wings in the world. Interestingly very few single tank wings that still feature them.

• Dorsal Weight-Wing: Anti-abrasion and instant dry. Optimal "Outboard" trim pockets.

Isn't this just marketing speak for 'back inflate with trim pockets'?

• Buckle Weight System: Simple, safe and reliable quick-release buckles offer a fixed location for easy one-hand operation.

I have a single buckle. It works. Can operate with one hand. One point of failure.

• Multi-Mount Accessory Matrix: Multiple D-Rings and mounting points for a knife + light + SMB + hoses + crotch strap and much more.

Have what I need. Plenty of accessory pockets from dozens of manufacutrers for standard 2" webbing

• Smart-Pack Design: Folding shoulder and waist straps pack into the wing, creating an unbelievably compact package for easy transport and storage.

Probably nice. I don't take my BP/W carry-on, and 2 full sets of gear break down and pack down neatly in a medium sizes hardshell samsonite. Works for me.

Please note, I'm not saying it's not a good product. I'm just saying it's a very expensive product that doesn't have any unique selling points to convince me it is superior to a simple backplate/wing. It may well be a bit more comfortable out of the water, particularly for people with a slighter build (my girlfriend struggles more with a BP/W, but that's mostly due to the weight, which is the same as what I need to carry although she's 2/3 my weight), but in the water, where it really matters? Dunno. Maybe the flexibility helps if you have back issues and a poorly fitted wing, for example. They also mention better fit for women and 'feeling like it's not there', but those are already features of a normal BP/W, if I'm to believe my girlfriend, who loves the 'free' feeling of the minimalist hog harnass and wing under water.

Some people like to drive and justify driving a Lada and others can afford and enjoy driving a Mercedes and some even a Rolls Royce. You can make a good argument for any of them just to make yourself feel good about what you can afford. It is OK if you can't afford better products and actually enjoy them, no one is going to judge you based on that.