Breathing rate, air integrated computers and DCI correlation

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Think of it this way: If you're standing neck deep in a river, it doesn't matter that the river is 4 feet wide or 40, you're the same amount of wet. The environment your alveoli are in is under the same partial pressure of nitrogen (PPN) regardless of the rate you breathe or how much gas you consume. The only way that PPN goes up or down is by changing the pressure gradient by reducing the pressure of the ambient environment (so that the new PPN is lower than the PPN in the alveoli).
 
I don't think the point of contention is about the fact that heavy exertion should be addressed with greater conservatism, or that heart and/or respiration rate(s) can serve as a proxy for when to apply such conservatism, but that the breathing pattern itself can be a cause of DCS.

Though as an aside, having my computer actively monitoring those biometrics and then having to process and apply the data from the monitors to the algorithm seems like an unnecessarily complicated and failure-prone approach. I recently ran into an unexpected heavy current around 100-110' coming back from a long, deep air shore dive; I adjusted for the unexpected exertion of kicking all the way back against it by changing from 0 to +3 conservatism in VPM on the fly... the extra deco time was enjoyably cleared in the reefs of Hanauma Bay. Then again, I use computers that don't bar the diver from changing such settings on the fly...maybe Beaver Divers can tell us which Scubapro dinosaur offers that option instead of a chest strap heart monitor?
 
Better Snow, better Snow riders

Except that we're talking about diving and the dive computers that you so aggressively hock. How's that going anyway? Got any big orders from this thread of yours?

& better Divers than Killington!:D

Meet me there to dive VT marble caves and preserved revolutionary war wrecks and I'll come dive whatever mud puddle you have to exhibit.

Just don't expect me to use whatever voodoo you use to monitor your NDL.

---------- Post added September 10th, 2013 at 11:01 PM ----------

II recently ran into an unexpected heavy current around 100-110' coming back from a long, deep air shore dive; I adjusted for the unexpected exertion of kicking all the way back against it by changing from 0 to +3 conservatism in VPM on the fly... the extra deco time was enjoyably cleared in the reefs of Hanauma Bay. Then again, I use computers that don't bar the diver from changing such settings on the fly...maybe Beaver Divers can tell us which Scubapro dinosaur offers that option instead of a chest strap heart monitor?

I also agree that a computer should allow divers to change dive parameters in the water (adding gases not previously set, switching gradient factors or moving the conservatism needle, etc). I'm curious though, for the dive in question, why not just extend your shallow stops? Hanauma bay has plenty to look at in shallow water. Seems unnecessary to muck with your algorithm. Just curious.
 
I'm curious though, for the dive in question, why not just extend your shallow stops? Hanauma bay has plenty to look at in shallow water. Seems unnecessary to muck with your algorithm. Just curious.

Mainly because I was decoing on air and had only run up 10', 20', and 30' stops, so there wasn't much to muck with; partly just because I could/to see if VPM agreed with my estimation of how long to extend. One of these days I'll be motivated enough to make sure my 130s have slightrox in them and schlep some 40s of deco gas down there to find the biplane at 150', but this past weekend was so not that day.
 
I don't think the point of contention is about the fact that heavy exertion should be addressed with greater conservatism, or that heart and/or respiration rate(s) can serve as a proxy for when to apply such conservatism, but that the breathing pattern itself can be a cause of DCS.

...maybe Beaver Divers can tell us which Scubapro dinosaur offers that option instead of a chest strap heart monitor?

I agree. It's very clear Beaver's claim is, "I modified a diver's behavior and I am taking credit for preventing future DCS." If the diver held her breath on ascent and tore some tissues, okay maybe evaluation and training can fix that issue. But a decompression stress/injury resultant from excessive pressure gradient of inert gas upon surfacing cannot be fixed by breathing patterns underwater.

It's probable the sales pitch tried here is profitable, and it's likely the uneducated diver is willing to listen to this dribble and buy the product. Eventually the very profitable lifestyle divers will know as much or more than the majority of the dive shop staff. The issue becomes not the day the diver knows more, but when they figure out you sold them a line of BS to complete the sale of some voodoo anti-litigation technology. That's the day you become only as relevant as an air fill station, and your local customer begins buying gear from a respected online retailer.

I've seen it happen before, and it will happen again.
 
I am in no way supporting his original contention about the female diver. I am trying to advance the discussion to the use of AI in the algorithum. I see nothing wrong with this feature or the logic behind using heart rate and breathing pattern to detect increased workload and make on the fly adjustments in the computer. This is just turning up a conservative factor for the duration of the event and it is user selectable.

I think for some of you this has more to do with dislike of Beaverdiver than anything else.

Dr Lecter gets my point and but still has snarky comments about outdated computers. But then describes how he adjusted a profile in a similar manner based on workload.

Highwing, what exactly is VooDoo about this concept? I consider myself an "educated diver" and can see the reasoning and think there could be some value in this.

Mathhauck, You like the idea of being able to change computer modes on the fly, but still dislike this feature. Is this about a poor salespitch.

Lets hear some reasons? A lot of people are following this thread.

I use the Workload monitor feature to remind me to relax and slow down. It has helped my SAC rate. I really can't detect changes in dive computations.
 
Mathhauck, You like the idea of being able to change computer modes on the fly, but still dislike this feature. Is this about a poor salespitch.

As has been mentioned previously in the thread, using a documented algorithm that is standardized has its benefits. For instance, leveraging a planning app like iDeco Pro (which uses the same decompression algorithm as the Shearwater computers and has customizable gradient factors) I can run the dives through any number of scenarios before hand.

a. What is my profile if the dive is ideal?
b. What is my profile if the dive were to run longer because of an emergency?
c. What is my profile if I were forced deeper because of an emergency?

etc.

Where I see this particular "functionality" breaking down is that it does not leverage any known aspect of the algorithm and instead imposes new variables which are neither documented nor explained well enough to be useful in the planning process. I don't understand, nor do I ascribe to, retroactive dive planning. I don't understand further why anyone would trust a tool that messes with with the algorithm without an understanding of exactly what it's doing. That's the voodoo part - it's undocumented and not something you can replicate anywhere but in the computer. You can't anticipate its behavior and thus can't really understand it.
 
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I am in no way supporting his original contention about the female diver. I am trying to advance the discussion to the use of AI in the algorithum. I see nothing wrong with this feature or the logic behind using heart rate and breathing pattern to detect increased workload and make on the fly adjustments in the computer. This is just turning up a conservative factor for the duration of the event and it is user selectable.

I think for some of you this has more to do with dislike of Beaverdiver than anything else.

Dr Lecter gets my point and but still has snarky comments about outdated computers. But then describes how he adjusted a profile in a similar manner based on workload.

Highwing, what exactly is VooDoo about this concept? I consider myself an "educated diver" and can see the reasoning and think there could be some value in this.

Mathhauck, You like the idea of being able to change computer modes on the fly, but still dislike this feature. Is this about a poor salespitch.

Lets hear some reasons? A lot of people are following this thread.

I use the Workload monitor feature to remind me to relax and slow down. It has helped my SAC rate. I really can't detect changes in dive computations.

I never saw the contention being on whether blood flow rates effect dissolved gas exchange. But where is the data that provides the basis for how much adjustment is appropriate and in what direction? I believe that is the point of contention. And, yes, there is also some issue with measuring heart rate and/or breathing rate (volume and/or frequency) and relating that information to blood flow rate. Again, where is the scientific data that supports this mapping.

It is my impression that what BD is selling (literally) is some rather expensive snake oil. Sure, anything you do that reduces NDLs (including playing golf) may reduce the risk of DCI. Clearly, it will not increase the risk. How much extra are you willing to pay for a computer or feature that will give you less bottom time with little or no decrease in DSI risk?

In your case, you seem to be using it for an entirely different purpose - to decrease your SAC. I assume you are using this to increase bottom time. This is something you can measure and place a value on if you choose. I find I can monitor my own breathing behavior quite satisfactorily without such sensors, but for those unable to do that, such sensors may be worthwhile.

But that does not seem to be what BD is selling.

BTW, I find it quite easy to "change my computer" on the fly. My computers have a tissue loading bar graph which displays the N2 load of the leading compartment in 15 equal increments. So I can take my tissue loading right up to 100% or I can be more conservative by backing off a tick or two (or three or four) and reduce my loading as I choose - in my dive plan and on the fly.
 
Highwing, what exactly is VooDoo about this concept? I consider myself an "educated diver" and can see the reasoning and think there could be some value in this.

Thank you for asking. My opinions are based on endlessly studying this general topic, and a few live human experiments I've accidentally and/or purposefully performed on myself.

Let's agree there are several reasonably validated decompression models available. We potentially agree evidence suggests all the models are essentially flawed in some way. Despite the knowledge the available models are in some ways flawed, the available models are producing the desired result the vast majority of the time. The obvious question becomes, “Is there a missing factor to DCS”, but the equally important question becomes its antithesis.

The principle models, ZHL16B/C+GF, RGBM, VPM, etc. are essentially available for study. I can compare them, I can evaluate the differences in pre-planning, I can complete the dive and evaluate the parameters and the outcome they produced. I can use the data I’ve collected about my dives, and myself and make purposeful manipulations and track and evaluate that data/result. With proprietary and secret company models, and extraneous inputs, I lose almost all that advantage as the proprietary secret models hide what they’re doing.

Some dive computers are preset with the conservatism at ZHL16-C 30/70GF which would be widely regarded in practical application by a recreational diver as excessively conservative. Because my latest computer came equipped accordingly, I dove the computer this way for a while. Having been previously diving 30/85, it was clear I was staying shallow longer and I actually could feel the difference occasionally. What I eventually determined was that I felt more awake and less drained when I dove 30/70 on deeper, and perhaps technical dives. This caused me a bit of pause, did my body really respond differently staying shallow longer? So I bought my wife the same computer and we dove, and unprompted she noted she was not as tired.

It was at this moment I realized we are absolutely benefiting by exiting the water at 70% of the M-Value versus 85% of the M-Value. In my next experiment, I set the conservatism to 30/85% and we dove single-gas recreational limits using air. Post dive analysis, we both felt good, and no problems or fatigue. After a good ponder, I realized that more knowledge of the model allows me to manipulate it in a meaningful way for my particular application. My body responds just fine being a little more aggressive on recreational dives, but deeper multi-gas dives, it doesn’t. I discovered my ending result is more physically tolerable spending more time in shallow water decompressing on the bigger dives.

I don’t appreciate proprietary models which are not released to the diver for evaluation and consideration. I want to see where the starting point is and what I’m actually manipulating to assure that I’m moving the model in a meaningful way in the direction of intent. Say I set the body size to fat-dude, is it adding a deep stop, or adding shallow time? If I learn that the fat-dude setting is adding deep time and I know my body is responding better to longer shallow, do I adjust it to skinny-dude if I'm really a fat-dude?? Conservatism is nothing more than a model correction in an attempt to push the over-pressure gradient down. The question becomes, why manipulate a model from somewhere to somewhere when you don’t have a clue where you started? However, if evidence is presented that conclusively tied biofeedback with touch-based sensors to inert gas loading and test proved the new technology provided a meaningful risk reduction I’d consider it. If you look at the likelihood of DCS incidence per dive attempt, you’re going to find it very difficult to move that needle in a statistically meaningful way at this juncture.
 
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All nice and technical, but this is a Basic Area and lets face it the likelihood of DCI on an individual dive is pretty low while staying within the limits of any accepted model.

Uwatec added an optional automatic way to trigger added conservatism that you don't like - that doesn't make it VooDoo. The user selectable conservatism factors on the three brands of computers I own, including the Uwatec, seem pretty arbitrary, too.

Changing the assumed altitude will surely make the profile more conservative, but how did someone determine how much was necessary? I suspect that they conveniently selected 3000', the point where we start adjusting tables for altitude. It is just a convenient and easy way to accomplish getting a conservative profile.

Frankly, I bought this computer because I wanted AI and a digital compass. I still have analog guages as a backup to the magic, but I like having everything on one display. I am still exploring features if the computer. Most I will never use, some make sense, others are fluff. Probably true on most computers.

BTW the default setting for Workload Sensing is Off.
 

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