BP & Wing Gear Decisions Help

[theod]

Recreational diver looking to get my first BP and Wing (how many times has that topic been done?) Anyway I think i've read just about every post on the subject here on the SB. Here's where I'm at: Ive narrowed my choices down to three companies (each made in the USA)

I normally dive a 3mm in warmer water. I'm not interested in going full DIR but that may change in the future. I dont have interest in cave diving because my wife would kill me if I uttered the words in her presense. So think of me as a recreational diver that wants good trim and rock solid stability in the water. I sometimes dive without a wet suite but not all that frequently. And for now I won't likely get a dry suit but I'd like to have the option to dive places like the springs in florida (7mm maybe?). My primary ambition for moving from jacket BC to BPW is for Buoyancy control and simplicity. I have only ever dove a halcyon infinity rig 1 time but I liked it for the 1 hour or so that I had it on but I did have some trouble dumping the air in the wing (probably user error)

Because the majority of the forum advice was to contact Tobin at DSS I went ahead and did that before making any major decisions. He gave me a recommendation that has a lot of great points. SS BP + 17# wing + Hog harness, Add Al80 and Diver. I won't likely need any more weight with my 3mm. And before I go any further: Major Cudos for customer service from DSS. The personal touch is really nice.

I've browsed Dive Rite, Halcyon, Oxycheq, HoG, and OMS websites (and DSS) and I feel I have a pretty good understanding of what each has to offer and I'm not commiting to any one brand I just want simple, modular and reliable.

So what's my problem? Well I'm still evaluating each brand and I would like some opinions pros/cons and experiences. Not necessarily on which is better because that's all subjective. I'm looking for features that you like and dont' like. So I'll start with what I think about each brand and feel free to add or criticize (i'm new I expect the criticism)

Halcyon: Cost for basic setup $799-899 plus shipping. For me it would be a single tank rig probably the infinity or something I don't know if i'd use the cinch system all that much so that might just be wasted money. I like the fact that the rig comes with weight pockets for colder diving with more exposure suit, shoulder pads (which I'll probably remove), back plate pad(and SMB pocket). I like the idea of steel cam band buckles. I don't like that the SS back plate requires a STA. That means that even with my 3mm I'll probably still be over weight. I also dont like that you can only get a 30# wing. However I like the fact that I can just get an aluminum back plate and it has the cam band holes in it. I've not been able to determine if you still need an STA with the Halcyon wing no matter what (Anyone care to chime in). So I could get a halcyon rig and both plates and except for the large wing I might have a rig that is modular enough to dive in many situations from tropics to cold water.


Dive Rite: Cost for basic setup $450ish Basically I was looking at the SS DR BP+ Oxycheq Mach V wing at scuba toys and I can get the basic set up there for about the same price as a DSS rig and add an aluminum plate to the mix for less then 100 extra. Shipping is cheap for me because I live in houston. It seems that Dive Rite doesn't have the bells and whistles of DSS or Halcyon but the quality based on the forum members is about the same. I like the product line options from dive rite for future add-ons. Again I won't need weight pockets but having a SS plate and an AL plate makes a lot of sense for me. I can't determine if using the Dive rite plate with the oxycheq wing is the best because some pictures look like the cam band strap holes in the plate may not line up with the cam band holes in the wing.. A disadvantage of that system is that I'll need to bolt the wing onto the plate making post dive clean up a bit longer. I like the fact that the oxycheq wing (and halcyon) have the inflator hose offset to the left because i'm not likely to make the leap to DIN anytime soon and I'm wondering if having the inflator and first stage in the same area for center located inflator hose wings will cause problems? I like that DR offers a back plate pad pocket for SMB just like Halcyon.

DSS: Cost for basic setup $475. So of all the brands I have to say that I really dig the thoughtfulness of DSS gear. I like the idea of having the thermoplastic over molded features on the back plate to avoid abrasion. I like the fact that I don't need and STA. I understand that having a lower CG (keeping the tank closer to my back is good) so his flatter plate designs have a benefit. What I dont like is that once I go with DSS and I want a lighter weight plate I need to spend another $214 for a kydex plate. Don't get me wrong I'm sure they are awesome but I have a slight aversion to plastic; especially when I could get an aluminum DR plate for $80. That being said I especially like the fact that I could remove the wing from the BP without going to the tool box for a screwdriver. As mentioned above I'm not sure if the center inflator hose location on DSS wings is best for me. So I think truly my only two hangups with DSS are the cost for a second lightweight plate and the wing inflator hose location (which may not really be an issue). Maybe Tobin could crank out a economy version of his plate out of AL with no overmolded plastic custom for me . Or I guess I could always use a DR plate with the DSS wing for that matter. Also is there any issue with GUE training and the Kydex Plate? (should i do a fundies class in the future)

As far as zippered wing vs sewn up: I'm kind of on the fence with that. I think in rare cases will I ever be on in a situation where I cant either (A) Buy a wing /rent a wing or (B) mail the wing back for repairs.

Now if you've read all that and your head isn't spinning congrats! So feel free to comment on my likes and dislikes.

 

[JohnN]

Recreational diver looking to get my first BP and Wing (how many times has that topic been done?) Anyway I think i've read just about every post on the subject here on the SB. Here's where I'm at: Ive narrowed my choices down to three companies (each made in the USA)

I normally dive a 3mm in warmer water. I'm not interested in going full DIR but that may change in the future. I dont have interest in cave diving because my wife would kill me if I uttered the words in her presense. So think of me as a recreational diver that wants good trim and rock solid stability in the water. I sometimes dive without a wet suite but not all that frequently. And for now I won't likely get a dry suit but I'd like to have the option to dive places like the springs in florida (7mm maybe?). My primary ambition for moving from jacket BC to BPW is for Buoyancy control and simplicity. I have only ever dove a halcyon infinity rig 1 time but I liked it for the 1 hour or so that I had it on but I did have some trouble dumping the air in the wing (probably user error)

Because the majority of the forum advice was to contact Tobin at DSS I went ahead and did that before making any major decisions. He gave me a recommendation that has a lot of great points. SS BP + 17# wing + Hog harness, Add Al80 and Diver. I won't likely need any more weight with my 3mm. And before I go any further: Major Cudos for customer service from DSS. The personal touch is really nice.

I've browsed Dive Rite, Halcyon, Oxycheq, HoG, and OMS websites (and DSS) and I feel I have a pretty good understanding of what each has to offer and I'm not commiting to any one brand I just want simple, modular and reliable.

So what's my problem? Well I'm still evaluating each brand and I would like some opinions pros/cons and experiences. Not necessarily on which is better because that's all subjective. I'm looking for features that you like and dont' like. So I'll start with what I think about each brand and feel free to add or criticize (i'm new I expect the criticism)

Halcyon: Cost for basic setup $799-899 plus shipping. For me it would be a single tank rig probably the infinity or something I don't know if i'd use the cinch system all that much so that might just be wasted money. I like the fact that the rig comes with weight pockets for colder diving with more exposure suit, shoulder pads (which I'll probably remove), back plate pad(and SMB pocket). I like the idea of steel cam band buckles. I don't like that the SS back plate requires a STA. That means that even with my 3mm I'll probably still be over weight. I also dont like that you can only get a 30# wing. However I like the fact that I can just get an aluminum back plate and it has the cam band holes in it. I've not been able to determine if you still need an STA with the Halcyon wing no matter what (Anyone care to chime in). So I could get a halcyon rig and both plates and except for the large wing I might have a rig that is modular enough to dive in many situations from tropics to cold water.


Dive Rite: Cost for basic setup $450ish Basically I was looking at the SS DR BP+ Oxycheq Mach V wing at scuba toys and I can get the basic set up there for about the same price as a DSS rig and add an aluminum plate to the mix for less then 100 extra. Shipping is cheap for me because I live in houston. It seems that Dive Rite doesn't have the bells and whistles of DSS or Halcyon but the quality based on the forum members is about the same. I like the product line options from dive rite for future add-ons. Again I won't need weight pockets but having a SS plate and an AL plate makes a lot of sense for me. I can't determine if using the Dive rite plate with the oxycheq wing is the best because some pictures look like the cam band strap holes in the plate may not line up with the cam band holes in the wing.. A disadvantage of that system is that I'll need to bolt the wing onto the plate making post dive clean up a bit longer. I like the fact that the oxycheq wing (and halcyon) have the inflator hose offset to the left because i'm not likely to make the leap to DIN anytime soon and I'm wondering if having the inflator and first stage in the same area for center located inflator hose wings will cause problems? I like that DR offers a back plate pad pocket for SMB just like Halcyon.

DSS: Cost for basic setup $475. So of all the brands I have to say that I really dig the thoughtfulness of DSS gear. I like the idea of having the thermoplastic over molded features on the back plate to avoid abrasion. I like the fact that I don't need and STA. I understand that having a lower CG (keeping the tank closer to my back is good) so his flatter plate designs have a benefit. What I dont like is that once I go with DSS and I want a lighter weight plate I need to spend another $214 for a kydex plate. Don't get me wrong I'm sure they are awesome but I have a slight aversion to plastic; especially when I could get an aluminum DR plate for $80. That being said I especially like the fact that I could remove the wing from the BP without going to the tool box for a screwdriver. As mentioned above I'm not sure if the center inflator hose location on DSS wings is best for me. So I think truly my only two hangups with DSS are the cost for a second lightweight plate and the wing inflator hose location (which may not really be an issue). Maybe Tobin could crank out a economy version of his plate out of AL with no overmolded plastic custom for me . Or I guess I could always use a DR plate with the DSS wing for that matter. Also is there any issue with GUE training and the Kydex Plate? (should i do a fundies class in the future)

As far as zippered wing vs sewn up: I'm kind of on the fence with that. I think in rare cases will I ever be on in a situation where I cant either (A) Buy a wing /rent a wing or (B) mail the wing back for repairs.

Now if you've read all that and your head isn't spinning congrats! So feel free to comment on my likes and dislikes.

I'm very happy with a HOG SS backplate and 32 lb wing. Not too big for warm water, big enough for single tank (HP120), cold water and a drysuit

About $400 from Jim L.

 

[PfcAJ]

Halcyon: Cost for basic setup $799-899 plus shipping. For me it would be a single tank rig probably the infinity or something I don't know if i'd use the cinch system all that much so that might just be wasted money. I like the fact that the rig comes with weight pockets for colder diving with more exposure suit, shoulder pads (which I'll probably remove), back plate pad(and SMB pocket). I like the idea of steel cam band buckles. I don't like that the SS back plate requires a STA. That means that even with my 3mm I'll probably still be over weight. I also dont like that you can only get a 30# wing. However I like the fact that I can just get an aluminum back plate and it has the cam band holes in it. I've not been able to determine if you still need an STA with the Halcyon wing no matter what (Anyone care to chime in). So I could get a halcyon rig and both plates and except for the large wing I might have a rig that is modular enough to dive in many situations from tropics to cold water.

You can get the H unit sans Cinch, its not really needed, to be honest. I have an older Halcyon wing (Pioneer) that doesn't use an STA. I wish I had an STA, and I might get one soon. Its a pita to swap back and forth between doubles and singles since I've got to weave the cam strap through the plate. There are ultralight STAs out there if you're worried about being overweighted. Steel plate is where its at (I sold my AL and haven't looked back, 4 continents of travel later). 30lb wing is pretty ideal. It will work well in warmer water and equally well in cold water. Imo, the separate bladder/wing shell is worthwhile. I have torn an outershell before and I have punctured a wing. Both repairs were easy (and dive-saving) because of the separate bladder/shell design.

As for dumping air, pull the little cord on the dump vale up&away. Commonly, people tend to pull it down and out, which flattens the wing. Samesies for all the other brands out there.

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . . Also is there any issue with GUE training and the Kydex Plate? (should i do a fundies class in the future)
. . .

Just to confuse you even more, the Halcyon Traveler BC has a plastic (nylon) backplate. A GUE instructor showed me one, so it seems reasonable to believe that the Halcyon nylon plate as well as DSS's kydex plate would meet the GUE requirements of a "rigid" plate.

I'm in the same boat as you--aware of at least those three sources and uncertain what to do. As far as the STA vs. STA-less, you might want to look into the pros and cons further. Logic would have it that STA-less is better because it's simpler and the BP is closer to your back, but there may be disadvantages as well, like greater potential for hitting your head on the tank valve.

 

[theod]

You can get the H unit sans Cinch, its not really needed, to be honest. I have an older Halcyon wing (Pioneer) that doesn't use an STA. I wish I had an STA, and I might get one soon. Its a pita to swap back and forth between doubles and singles since I've got to weave the cam strap through the plate. There are ultralight STAs out there if you're worried about being overweighted. Steel plate is where its at (I sold my AL and haven't looked back, 4 continents of travel later). 30lb wing is pretty ideal. It will work well in warmer water and equally well in cold water. Imo, the separate bladder/wing shell is worthwhile. I have torn an outershell before and I have punctured a wing. Both repairs were easy (and dive-saving) because of the separate bladder/shell design.

As for dumping air, pull the little cord on the dump vale up&away. Commonly, people tend to pull it down and out, which flattens the wing. Samesies for all the other brands out there.

This is the kind of feedback I'm looking for. I don't want (Brand x is better because that what i've used) I want practical application of why it's better Thank you Aj.

---------- Post added July 9th, 2013 at 04:13 PM ----------

Just to confuse you even more, the Halcyon Traveler BC has a plastic (nylon) backplate. A GUE instructor showed me one, so it seems reasonable to believe that the Halcyon nylon plate as well as DSS's kydex plate would meet the GUE requirements of a "rigid" plate.

I'm in the same boat as you--aware of at least those three sources and uncertain what to do. As far as the STA vs. STA-less, you might want to look into the pros and cons further. Logic would have it that STA-less is better because it's simpler and the BP is closer to your back, but there may be disadvantages as well, like greater potential for hitting your head on the tank valve.

Good info. I question if everything halcyon is DIR/GUE compliant just because it's got an H on it. That's a question for maybe a GUE instructor. And I've only narrowed to those three sources because they represent the ends of the spectrum with cost and design.

 

[PfcAJ]

Not everything H sells is DIR/GUE. Some of the stuff is still pretty slick, but not to the letter.

Kydex/nylon/plastic/whatever is cool if you've REALLY gotta cut weight somewhere, but you're going to put it right back on later with either a belt, weight on camstraps, or the little weight pouches on the traveller.

The thing that turns me off about the traveller (Ken, are you reading this?) is that the darn plate doesn't separate from the wing. I like to separate my wing from anything hard (like a plate, even if its plastic) when I turn my bag over to Timmy Tentpeg and the baggage handling crew. But the black d-rings are super sexy.

 

[guyharrisonphoto]

I am similar in my diving to you. I have a lot of experience, but am mainly a single tank diver, warmer water (7 mil wetsuit is absolute max).

My suggestion is to get a rig where you can adjust the Hogarthian harness. As far as I know, only Halcyon and DSS offer this option. This is an incredibly handy and useful option in certain circumstances. I added it last year and, having done so, an wondering what took me so long. For getting your gear off in the water (ie for tricky beach exits or even getting on a boat in calm water) it is an great feature. You can also adjust the fit of your harness instantly when you change exposure protection (ie from heavy wetsuit to a dive skin). My wife and I have Halcyon rigs and I have nothing but the best things to say about them from personal experience. You don't need the infinity, mainly because you don't need the foam back pad, as the plate is comfortable as is. The padded shoulder straps are useful if you dive with a skin or without a shirt. Instead of the back pad, get the smb storage pocket, really handy. But, mainly, get the cinch.

I also have heard nothing but good things about DSS, and they also have an adjustment rig, so either would be a good choice for you.

For me, that would be the deciding factor, above else. Most plate/harness rigs are pretty much the same otherwise, except for what material you want for your plate. Things like a thicker or thinner STA are nice in the abstract, but not too much difference once you are underwater.

For a wing, I dive big steel singles and sometimes carry a lot of weight with the steel plate, steel tank, and weights for a 7 mil. For me, a 40# donut is a perfect wing for me, from cold to warm waters. It can float me nice and high even in a chop with a heavy rig. Even if I had a configuration where I would be over-weight with the steel plate, I don't have to worry about swapping to a lighter plate (expensive and a pain) when the wing gives me more than enough buoyancy to cover everything. And yes, I travel with the steel plate.

You are going to love diving a bp/wing compared to a regular BCD.

 

[Gren]

I have experience with only DSS but I can say that the sized plates and plate weights are a nice touch as well as the top notch customer service. I use an LCD 30 wing and creates a very stable platform for my 15L steel single.

I agonized over what to purchase for a long time but in the end, given the options you've listed, you should be happy with your setup as long as you size the wing properly.

 

[eelnoraa]

I have own two of the OP's choice and use all 3. Let me chime in.

First, DR and DSS plates are similar in flatness. Both are on the flat side. H plate has deeper channel. I use STA with DR and H but no STA for DSS (obviously). My preference is deeper band of plate with STA. Basically, I want to tank to be further away from my be because my head tank to hit the first stage. A inches or so more between the tank and my head doesn't change much in overall profile or center of gravity. But it makes world of difference to my neck. This is the main reason I went from DR to H.

Assume you don't have the head bump issue I have, and you rig is a dedicated single setup, STA vs non STA really is personal preference. However, if you plan to use the same plate for single and double (if in future), or you want to use one set of cam bands on two plates (say SS for home single tank, AL for vacation single tank), then STA becomes very convinient. So choose based on how you will use your plates or head bump issue. Don't choose based on 1/2" lower center of gravity. But if you choose to go with STA-less, DSS implementation is really hard to beat.

Oxycheq MkVwing is probably the toughest of them. It is also the narrowest. So from low profile point of view, it is edge. A few shortcomings in Oxcheq design: 1)Due to narrowless, when tank is attached, the wing doesn't get full lift as advertized. My estimation is that Oxcheq MkV 40lb gives about 30lb of left with HP100 attached. 2)Oxcheq internal bladder is a lot bigger than the outter shell. It is folded in all edges inside the shell. My Oxycheq wing vent noticeably slower than my H wing and I think this folded bladder is the reason. 3)The tough outter shell is also the most stiff. It is a lot harder to pack for travel compared to DSS and H. Other than that, it is a good wing. I use mine for 2+ years without issues. I do find H eclipse to be better overall wing.

Last point I am trying to make is cost. H infiniti is $899, but it has more accessories than DSS and DR. The comfort padding is $119. Cinch is $119. Weight pockets are $139. So they are not really apple to apple comparison. A compatible H setup will still cost you upward of $600, but the differen't isn't as big as the retail price indicate

 

[theod]

I have own two of the OP's choice and use all 3. Let me chime in.

First, DR and DSS plates are similar in flatness. Both are on the flat side. H plate has deeper channel. I use STA with DR and H but no STA for DSS (obviously). My preference is deeper band of plate with STA. Basically, I want to tank to be further away from my be because my head tank to hit the first stage. A inches or so more between the tank and my head doesn't change much in overall profile or center of gravity. But it makes world of difference to my neck. This is the main reason I went from DR to H.

Assume you don't have the head bump issue I have, and you rig is a dedicated single setup, STA vs non STA really is personal preference. However, if you plan to use the same plate for single and double (if in future), or you want to use one set of cam bands on two plates (say SS for home single tank, AL for vacation single tank), then STA becomes very convinient. So choose based on how you will use your plates or head bump issue. Don't choose based on 1/2" lower center of gravity. But if you choose to go with STA-less, DSS implementation is really hard to beat.

Oxycheq MkVwing is probably the toughest of them. It is also the narrowest. So from low profile point of view, it is edge. A few shortcomings in Oxcheq design: 1)Due to narrowless, when tank is attached, the wing doesn't get full lift as advertized. My estimation is that Oxcheq MkV 40lb gives about 30lb of left with HP100 attached. 2)Oxcheq internal bladder is a lot bigger than the outter shell. It is folded in all edges inside the shell. My Oxycheq wing vent noticeably slower than my H wing and I think this folded bladder is the reason. 3)The tough outter shell is also the most stiff. It is a lot harder to pack for travel compared to DSS and H. Other than that, it is a good wing. I use mine for 2+ years without issues. I do find H eclipse to be better overall wing.

Last point I am trying to make is cost. H infiniti is $899, but it has more accessories than DSS and DR. The comfort padding is $119. Cinch is $119. Weight pockets are $139. So they are not really apple to apple comparison. A compatible H setup will still cost you upward of $600, but the differen't isn't as big as the retail price indicate

Good info. Where can I look at cost for a very basic halcyon rig? Any websites sell a package without the crap I won't need? ( pockets and padding)

---------- Post added July 9th, 2013 at 06:56 PM ----------

So just looked at extreme exposure and priced a halcyon rig with cinch and wing with no other options and the cost is 878 $$$$$. That didnt even include a sta. It's cheaper to get the whole package and just not use the crap that I don't need. So I'm interested if anyone knows of a cheaper resource? Otherwise I don't see the real value in H