BP/W setup during Divemaster training

[Hawkwood]

Are you able to point us in the direction of where this information came from? This is the first that I have heard of it (assuming PADI).

Students are now allowed to be configured in sidemount during their Open Water Course. By necessity they would be using the long hose.

Bill

Herman,

I was told there have been some new rules handed down as of May of this year. You can no longer use a long hose in OW or AOW classes. BP/W is fine (unless instructor says otherwise), but the regulator must be the normal PADI setup with an octo. I was told this rule was handed down because of an air sharing incident in an OW class in May of this year in which a dive master failed to donate the long hose to a student who had a regulator problem and signaled OOA. The student had no idea what to do then and bolted for the surface. The ban on long hoses was extended to AOW because many students take AOW immediately after OW class and are still novice divers. Long hoses are allowed in rescue class because we don't have novices signing up for that class.

In the pool sessions the rig must be substantially similar to the one provided to the students in order to make demonstrations practical.

 

[James R]

I did about 90% of my DM training in my BP/W. The 20 skills and gear exchange I used a jacket BCD (ScubaPro Knighthawk).

 

[Froid]

About 2 years ago we had a DMC with a BP/W and a 7' hose. There was a bit of a brouhaha about it and the instructor called the certifying agency. The certifying agency said that you are required to have similar equipment to the student you are teaching. Not only for demonstrations purposes but also for liability issues.

With the litigious world we live in these days, reducing liability is a focus of many of the agencies.

 

[Sol]

I did my OW and AOW in the standard LDS rental gear (jacket-style BCD). No complaints. In the long-term, I'd like to do my DM and then instructor course, but I'm not at the point yet where I've started buying my own gear (apart from the basics).


Since the AOW, I've been fine-tuning buoyancy control and experimenting with a number of different rental setups on successive dives — most recently, I borrowed a Halcyon BP/W for a weekend. (I should note — all these dives have been in fresh water, in 7mm wetsuit at least and often with a second 7mm layer with hood.) Buoyancy and trim characteristics were very different, of course, and I had to adjust a little more frequently than I'm used to with a jacket, but I have to say, I liked it.


I get what some of the posters are saying about dive shops wanting you to wear what the students are wearing if you're going to be teaching, and indeed, I've gotten the same message from my instructor.


What I'm wondering, though, is how much it matters what kind of rig you use when you're doing your own training. I'm planning a trip to Roatan in December and hoping to do the Rescue and EFR course with a PADI op down there; my friend is in no hurry to get his Halcyon back and says I'm welcome to take it down there with me. What do people think? Take the BP/W, or just go with the rental gear in Roatan?

 

[boulderjohn]

I was told there have been some new rules handed down as of May of this year. You can no longer use a long hose in OW or AOW classes. BP/W is fine (unless instructor says otherwise), but the regulator must be the normal PADI setup with an octo. I was told this rule was handed down because of an air sharing incident in an OW class in May of this year in which a dive master failed to donate the long hose to a student who had a regulator problem and signaled OOA. The student had no idea what to do then and bolted for the surface. The ban on long hoses was extended to AOW because many students take AOW immediately after OW class and are still novice divers. Long hoses are allowed in rescue class because we don't have novices signing up for that class.

I have never heard of this.

About 2 years ago we had a DMC with a BP/W and a 7' hose. There was a bit of a brouhaha about it and the instructor called the certifying agency. The certifying agency said that you are required to have similar equipment to the student you are teaching. Not only for demonstrations purposes but also for liability issues.

With PADI, I was specifically told the opposite.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

About 2 years ago we had a DMC with a BP/W and a 7' hose. There was a bit of a brouhaha about it and the instructor called the certifying agency. The certifying agency said that you are required to have similar equipment to the student you are teaching. Not only for demonstrations purposes but also for liability issues.

With the litigious world we live in these days, reducing liability is a focus of many of the agencies.

Making a comment like that and not naming the agency that said that is like saying my buddy's friend's second cousin read this in the Weekly World News.

 

[Ste Wart]

I don't see what the fuss is about. If the DC doesn't want you to wear a BP/W then acquiesce, but with the proviso they give you shop equipment to use. At the end of the day you satisfy the equipment requirements for a Pro Level PADI course, but if you have the opportunity to thrash the hell out of their gear while working for your DM then take it. I used to loathe teaching Rescue courses, not because of teaching, but the wear and tear that kit suffered while participating in endless kit removal and beach exit scenarios.

I bought my kit for one simple reason, for me to dive. Whenever I had the chance to use shop equipment for Courses I would jump at the chance. Although not the regs.... you never know where they've been!

 

[ElGaucho]

I agree with some of the posts. The PADI Rescue exercise is pretty lame in itself. Removing people from their gear while giving rescue breaths could be argued to death as being the WRONG way of going about a rescue. But then, the point of the exercise is not really becoming an expert at removing gear while giving rescue breaths. It's a sorts of task over loading. If I give a rescue course, my answer to 99% of the questions is: it depends. I try to instill into students that they have to use common sense based on certain empiric knowledge. I try to give them as many scenarios and situations as possible. Having a student in a jacket so they can "pass" the rescue exercise is dumb INMO. In the end, exposing them to different gear, situations and MINDSETS so they can have thinking tools the day they need them is the correct approach.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I also would like to know the definition of similar. That can be used to justify dictating gear that the diver would otherwise never use. And that is stupid.
BC - other than the divers lungs a device that holds air and can be inflated and deflated to help with buoyancy control. Regulator- allows a person to breath under water and share air with another diver. Good enough definition of similar for me. So that says BPW, horse collar, fenzy, jacket, hybrid, etc. is acceptable.
As is a reg with long hose, air 2, standard hoses, double hose, etc.
Adding more restrictions is unnecessary and may be driven by ignorance, lack of understanding, lack of experience, or even greed. None of those however should affect the student or assistants. If the instructor can't deal with it they should not be teaching the class in the first place.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

 

[randytay]

I like how a candidate is sometimes chastised for not having an open mind when they ask for advice regarding their LDS having their panties tied in a knot because the candidates's choice of gear is a bp/w. the fact is, a lot of LDS has (incorrectly) assumed that bp/w are only for tech or cave, and that they have no place for recreational diving. They are almost always referred to as "tech gear". I am going to wager that the OP did not start with bp/w, and if he has switched from conventional BC, then yes he has an open mind because he tried both and picked the one he thinks is superior.

now to the OP:

I ran into a similar but different issue for my DM. The LDS had no problem with my gear when I inquire. After paying, he does not want me to use my gear anywhere near his students because it will "confuse them".

After my course, he was diving a backplate and wing, while I have moved on to sidemount. His response? Banned me from his shop.

Fast forward 6 months later, he is suddenly the "first to offer sidemount specialty in the city". I just laughed real hard when I received his email blitz (though banned, I am still on his email list).

My instructor course with another shop fared no better. Everything was ok until we get into the water, when I disagreed and proved to him that stability can be achieved without touching the bottom, and


Conclusion? They will always have a reason, whether right or wrong. My advice is, if that shop is your only choice, suspend your own beliefs for the duration of the course, suck it up and complete the course THEY wanted you to and move on. Good luck!

---------- Post Merged at 12:21 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 12:19 PM ----------

I have never heard of this.



With PADI, I was specifically told the opposite.

My experirience is the same on both.

---------- Post Merged at 12:31 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 12:19 PM ----------

Herman,

I was told there have been some new rules handed down as of May of this year. You can no longer use a long hose in OW or AOW classes. BP/W is fine (unless instructor says otherwise), but the regulator must be the normal PADI setup with an octo. I was told this rule was handed down because of an air sharing incident in an OW class in May of this year in which a dive master failed to donate the long hose to a student who had a regulator problem and signaled OOA. The student had no idea what to do then and bolted for the surface. The ban on long hoses was extended to AOW because many students take AOW immediately after OW class and are still novice divers. Long hoses are allowed in rescue class because we don't have novices signing up for that class.

In the pool sessions the rig must be substantially similar to the one provided to the students in order to make demonstrations practical.

More than a year ago when I was a DMC in a class of 7, I was the only one in BP/W and long hose. During a simulated leading certified divers dive, each one of us was to present a problem for the DMC acting as the divemaster leading the group to solve, underwater.

When the instructor pointed to me to present a problem, I promptly spit the regulator out of my mouth and fumbled around, pretending to unable to retrieve my regulator. The "DM" came over and "calm me down". I signaled "out of air" and continued to "fumble". The "DM" looked at me and tried to find my regulator, decided that he cannot find it, back off and again signaled me to "calm down". I gave the OOA signal again, expecting him to donate. Tess what he did? He back off and signaled me to "calm down", once again. In my mind was like "I can't breathe you f***tard! How do u expect me to calm down when I can't breathe?" So I gave an OOA signal once again. He responded similarly. I gave up and switched to my back up, gave the ok sign and we continued. The instructor did not comment on it either. I shudder to think what could have happened if the scenario was real.

Moral of the story? If you can't swim, don't blame it on the fit of your bathing suit. This is a skill issue, not an equipment one.