BP/W setup during Divemaster training

[Diver0001]

I like to think I have a open mind, would like to use both.

Sounds good. I hope it didn't sound like I was suggesting you weren't open minded. It was a challenge, not an accusation and I just wanted to turn the issue around to get you to see all sides. The main thing is to keep an open mind and it sounds to me like you do.

My LDS uses Scuba Pro Glide jackets as student BCD's, and the instructors usually wear them also.

Your knighthawk is very similar to that. It will do just fine to teach/assist in. No reason to replace it.

Even when I did my Discover Scuba in Roatan a couple years back I was in a Back Inflate.

I honestly don't get the back-inflate vs jacket war. I have both and dive extensively in both, including using twin sets and I also doing some technical diving, as do most of my friends. To me my twin set is very stable in the water and I'm very comfortable with it but I also use a jacket with a single cylinder for teaching and I often use that jacket on vacations as well with AL80's and honestly (sorry if this sounds arrogant) I'm a human fish in all of it. I think I could dive naked with milk jugs tied around my middle and still have perfect buoyancy. It wasn't always like that, though. When I first learned I was completely at ease under water but I struggled with my buoyancy control like nearly every OW student does. I'll admit that by the time I got introduced to technical diving (and associated gear) that I had about 8 or 9 hundred dives so by that time I was pretty comfortable in the jacket(s) I had been using.

To me..... it *seems* as though the bp/w vs jacket thing can sometimes be an expression of people trying to solve a skills problem (poor buoyancy control) with gear (a basket and blimp), which is, indeed, somewhat more stable. I can understand having a preference for one or the other because both have their strong points, but (to make a long story short) don't fall into the trap of thinking that one is *better* than the other. They're different and have different applications. However, if one has buoyancy control nailed then one can dive equally well in either.

Once again this isn't directed at you specifically (I obviously don't know you) but to get you to look at the issue from all the angles.

I do know that carrying extra weight on me to give to students if needed will be easier achieved while using my KnightHawk, however its no big deal to carry a few weights in a accesory pocket on my BP/W.

carrying extra weight means the instructor rushed the buoyancy check. I never carry extra weight and don't need it. I hope you're lucky enough to find a shop to work with that doesn't rush things.

I am trying to get my LDS to start carrying BP/W, but they tend to keep with the ScubaPro gear, and even they know that the ScubaPro BP/W gear is expensive compared to the competition. I would like to see them become a OxyChec(sp?), DiveRite, Hollis, or similar dealer, but they think that the new ScubaPro travel BCD is the answer, which I completely understand the market for, but dont think that its a good comparison.

I see myself in this comment. We (me and some friends) spent a couple of years pushing the shop to start carrying some "alternatives". Eventually the shop did do that but the Bp/w didn't sell well (students buy what they learned in) and the owner of the shop was never really comfortable with it because he didn't want to project an "Indiana Jones" image. He wanted to go for the "traa laa laa" image. I found it very sporting of him to give it a go and he still sells some diverite gear but truth be known, it's a niche and will remain a niche. The funny thing about the shop where I have been working is that until recently every single one of us up to and including the course director were technical divers but you'd never know it if you walked in the door shops need to project a certain image in order to attract customers so be understanding of the angst they have in "scaring people away". Also, in this day and age, just selling gear isn't as simple as it sounds. In most cases the shop has to become a "dealer" in order to carry a line of gear and that can often become a proverbial albatross around their neck. I can understand shops not wanting to carry more than one or two lines of gear for that reason.

R..

 

[herman]

my shop uses jackets for rentals and they want the DM's in that for OW and really rescue (since it makes it easier for them) AOW was BP/w although with a cludge setup (no long hose and normal Octo). If them is the rules i'll go jacket for that stuff, I don't like it but its not my shop or rules. After I finish we'll see I kinda by the argument for OW due to the demo's involved but after that I don't. I do believe students need the exposure to the breath of systems out there. Rescue is easier in a jacket due to all the clips, if you don't know what your doing in a BP/w its a pita and they are focused on just finishing it. I personally would like to see it in a BP/w but that's bc I dive one regularly. good luck and let us know how the conversation goes.

This may have just been the particular instructor ...or maybe just a misunderstanding on your part. I have been DMing at that shop for a long time and have never seen any anti any type of gear as long as it meets PADI standards. While I always use a jacket in the pool and most of the time in the OW water dives of OW class, it is my preference, not shop requirements. Jackets are so much easier to deal with when at the surface for long talks beween skills. For other classes I always use a back inflate or an express tech ....which is a bp/wing reguardless of what some think, for all the other classes. I use to use a long hose a lot of the time for ow but stopped because I ended up setting that reg up for drysuit use, I would demo the use on land for the students so they knew what I had on and why.....I even used an old school back plate and a horse collar once just to show the students something different. I know for a fact that at least 3 instructors use BP/wings except in the pool. The shop sells every thing from low end jackets to Halyson BPs and the owner and a lot of the staff and big time BP/wing using tech divers so I am positive they are not anti BP. If you had an issue with one particular instructor, call me, I would like to hear the details.

 

[Midge907]

If you don't agree with the mindset of the dive operation.... why do your DM training with them?

In my case, the next LDS is 400 miles away. I want to do my DM training in my local area using a drysuit, hoping to keep people involved in diving locally after certification, and to help find dive buddies locally. My LDS does a lot of certifications, but does very little in the way of keeping people involved in diving afterward. I do however really like the instructors that work at the shop, and get along with them well. If I wasnt to do my DM up here, not sure if I would go somewhere to do it, nor do I think it would have much for long term benifets if I did. The reason for wanting to do DM is really to just be able to help out with local classes, not to dream of moving and making a living from it, I have a day job that I dont plan on leaving.

 

[rlynch]

Herman, for the pool work they want jackets, after a few times asking. For OW I do believe the instructor has the call, but I'll ask the CD however. And maybe its just me but for the classes I have interned (1 AOW) it has been rec hose's on my single tank rig. That produced a sub optimal result when a reg out situation arose (me on a 26" primary hose, and 40" Octo), and your instinct is to donate the primary. I was carrying the stage as well with my left hand pulling out the reg as I realized how short the primary hose was, when the situation was resolved by the AI doing the right thing and shoving the reg back in their mouths and then me and the student surfacing. Also no issues with the shop or instructor, he set the rules for that class, and that's fine by me. My other internship was before we could do them (we were still doing pool work, evidently and was told me it would not count, which was fine...) was for AOW as well but since I was not the a DMC I could wear whatever I wanted (doubles, dry, "normal" in other words). I was just filming and helping with the setup and keep the students together. I don't mind wearing a jacket BC and singles, I just don't think its necessary given the varying styles of diving that students will be exposed to. However for most divers (2-10 dives a year on a vacation) that is pretty much all they ever see. I just personally do not prefer wearing a jacket B/C.

 

[Midge907]

Well I past my written for Rescue, as its a pretty easy test. I had the discussion with the shop staff, and they didnt flinch with the BP/W idea, but we all concluded that its probally best to do pool classes in gear that students would be wearing or similar, like my KnightHawk. I am glad I will be able to do the OW stuff with the gear i'm most comfortable in, and think that its going to be a good comprimise.

 

[antattack]

When I operate as a dive master, I dive in the gear the students are training in. My job is to facilitate their learning,. Using gear that the students are training is easier for the students, and obviously, it helps the dive shop showcase the stuff they are likely to sell to OW students.

Incidentally, I arrived at this conclusion, as usual, by making a mistake.
I wore a wing while helping with a rescue class. I was playing the victim for some students to practice a surface rescue of an unresponsive, not breathing diver. The poor student had a heck of a time giving rescue breaths while trying to figure out how to get me out of my webbing. My mistake, absolutely not his. As you know, the protocol for getting a diver out of a wing is to cut the webbing. Thankfully, he didn't know this and wrestled me out of my kit and handed the resulting stuff to waiting student who was playing gear tender.

I don't know about your kit, but my Halcyon 40# wing and backplate with STA and STA weight will float, but add my 16# weight belt and my removed gear is neutrally buoyant at the surface when my 100cuF tank is full. It's a balanced cold water, dry suit rig. That means it doesn't float all that well.

And that's why I dive in shop gear when I'm DMing.

So... there yougo.

 

[Midge907]

The poor student had a heck of a time giving rescue breaths while trying to figure out how to get me out of my webbing. My mistake, absolutely not his. .

I understand your point, however I did get a chuckle out of it. You state the poor diver had to "figure" out your system, I think that its great that they had to, because I bet it was a good learning experience for them, and part of rescue is throwing a few wrenches in. My 28lb wing floats fine, but you do have to make sure that it has lots of air in it. My LDS all though training in Jackets, they like to push the Back Inflates (KnightHawk), to customers who dive cold water, which to me is a lot better then selling Glides. I will continue to plan on using the BP/W in OW classes, and my KnightHawk in confined, mainly because I really dont like the bulkiness of a BCD, and when you throw the drysuit into the mix, its just that much worse.

 

[Bubble Junky]

Incidentally, I arrived at this conclusion, as usual, by making a mistake.
I wore a wing while helping with a rescue class. I was playing the victim for some students to practice a surface rescue of an unresponsive, not breathing diver. The poor student had a heck of a time giving rescue breaths while trying to figure out how to get me out of my webbing. My mistake, absolutely not his.

I would say the instructor's mistake, not yours...

 

[Diver0001]

It was nobody's mistake, it was a learning experience.

When we do this we instruct the "victim" to ask the rescuer, "what would you do in this case". If the rescuer said, "cut them out with a knife" then the scenario gets paused while the "victim" gets out of the set and then the scenario is resumed.

I firmly believe that exposing divers to all kinds of different configurations can only improve their understanding, so even if the rescuer didn't know what to do and dragged the victim out of the water with the kit on, then it becomes a teaching moment. After all, isn't it better to be exposed to this when it's "just" a scenario? Isn't this why we take courses?

R..

 

[Jaydubya]

This may have just been the particular instructor ...or maybe just a misunderstanding on your part. I have been DMing at that shop for a long time and have never seen any anti any type of gear as long as it meets PADI standards. While I always use a jacket in the pool and most of the time in the OW water dives of OW class, it is my preference, not shop requirements. Jackets are so much easier to deal with when at the surface for long talks beween skills. For other classes I always use a back inflate or an express tech ....which is a bp/wing reguardless of what some think, for all the other classes. I use to use a long hose a lot of the time for ow but stopped because I ended up setting that reg up for drysuit use, I would demo the use on land for the students so they knew what I had on and why.....I even used an old school back plate and a horse collar once just to show the students something different. I know for a fact that at least 3 instructors use BP/wings except in the pool. The shop sells every thing from low end jackets to Halyson BPs and the owner and a lot of the staff and big time BP/wing using tech divers so I am positive they are not anti BP. If you had an issue with one particular instructor, call me, I would like to hear the details.

Herman,

I was told there have been some new rules handed down as of May of this year. You can no longer use a long hose in OW or AOW classes. BP/W is fine (unless instructor says otherwise), but the regulator must be the normal PADI setup with an octo. I was told this rule was handed down because of an air sharing incident in an OW class in May of this year in which a dive master failed to donate the long hose to a student who had a regulator problem and signaled OOA. The student had no idea what to do then and bolted for the surface. The ban on long hoses was extended to AOW because many students take AOW immediately after OW class and are still novice divers. Long hoses are allowed in rescue class because we don't have novices signing up for that class.

In the pool sessions the rig must be substantially similar to the one provided to the students in order to make demonstrations practical.