BP/W & Long Hose In a PADI IE Exam

[Pavao]

I am not a PADI Instructor and therefor not breaking any standards.

Ok, that's good, I'm glad to hear.

The thread however, is still about PADI IE, that's the ops question and what he is preparing for

 

[RJP]

On top of that the most recent CPR guidelines for the general public no longer include rescue breaths since without compressions their effectiveness is dubious at best. The option to deliver two breaths upon surfacing is allowed and discussed. That is based on the rescuers judgment given the resources and distance needed to get the victim to proper treatment.

See links below from AHA and Red Cross for where "Hands Only" CPR is considered appropriate... and where inclusion of rescue breaths is still the recommendation. Per the both organizations

"Hands-only CPR is best used in emergencies where someone has seen another person suddenly collapse."

"Full CPR combining rescue breaths with chest compressions is the best option in some emergencies, including those involving infants and children, drowning victims, or people who collapse due to breathing problems.is the best option in some emergencies, including those involving infants and children, drowning victims, or people who collapse due to breathing problems." (My emphasis added.)

Learn More

http://www.redcross.org/images/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m6440194_HandsOnlyCPRsheet.pdf

Rescue breaths can also be omitted if the rescuer is unwilling or unable to provide them.

 

[scjoe]

I suspect that professional rescuers have scoffed at the rescue breathes while towing concept for years. They get the person out of the water and into the helicopter or onto the boat or shore as fast as possible. If agencies insist on keeping this requirement, they should at least make the tests real. Instead of the fake puff breaths that students do, make them inflate a small latex glove with each breath while towing their partner and see how long they last. Most students will probably figure out for themselves that this breath and tow thing isn't going to work.

 

[RJP]

I suspect that professional rescuers have scoffed at the rescue breathes while towing concept for years. They get the person out of the water and into the helicopter or onto the boat or shore as fast as possible. If agencies insist on keeping this requirement, they should at least make the tests real. Instead of the fake puff breaths that students do, make them inflate a small latex glove with each breath while towing their partner and see how long they last.

We had to give a "real" full-second breath on the victims chin or pocket mask.

Standards aside, the goal is to get the victim to professional help as quickly as possible. If I were 50yds out. with help on the dock, I'd forget the breaths and tow as fast as I could. If I was 400yds out, with no one immediately waiting for me on shore... I'd give rescue breaths.

---------- Post added February 11th, 2015 at 06:50 PM ----------

Most students will probably figure out for themselves that this breath and tow thing isn't going to work.

Been there... done that... in the real world. It works.

 

[Hartattack]

Should we change this thread to Rescue Diver Techniques? Or go back to the OP's question? I've read and thought about this subject a lot and most of you have some great points, in my experience, the instructors I work with utilize me and my DIR set up to test their students during the rescue class as an added challenge and a chance to get familiar with unfamiliar gear however, This is a college diving program so our OW course is 6 weeks long, in addition, our Rescue is 3-4 weeks depending on schedule, so we have more time with our students. I digress. The point I am trying to make is that, wouldn't it be better to have one IE student in BP/W Long hose etc just for the sheer chance other IE students may encounter this gear situation in the future? furthermore, gives them a chance to actually use their brains by stepping outside of the box when it comes to a rescue considering gear. While it may be a hinderance and make it "less easy" on other students, I feel that a good instructor is one who has experience in all things diving and is open to how others enjoy the sport. Who knows, maybe that one unlucky IE student who has to rescue me in the IE has to do it for real at a later date and is glad he had the opportunity to practice. Thats my last 0.02

 

[RJP]

Should we change this thread to Rescue Diver Techniques? Or go back to the OP's question? I've read and thought about this subject a lot and most of you have some great points, in my experience, the instructors I work with utilize me and my DIR set up to test their students during the rescue class as an added challenge and a chance to get familiar with unfamiliar gear however, This is a college diving program so our OW course is 6 weeks long, in addition, our Rescue is 3-4 weeks depending on schedule, so we have more time with our students. I digress. The point I am trying to make is that, wouldn't it be better to have one IE student in BP/W Long hose etc just for the sheer chance other IE students may encounter this gear situation in the future? furthermore, gives them a chance to actually use their brains by stepping outside of the box when it comes to a rescue considering gear. While it may be a hinderance and make it "less easy" on other students, I feel that a good instructor is one who has experience in all things diving and is open to how others enjoy the sport. Who knows, maybe that one unlucky IE student who has to rescue me in the IE has to do it for real at a later date and is glad he had the opportunity to practice. That's my last 0.02

Lots of thing would make sense, but you could very quickly imagine a dozen people in "other" configurations just in case someone might run into that configuration someday. (And then you should have very tall people, very short people, fat kids, skinny kids, kids that climb on rocks...) Besides, there's no way for PADI to anticipate/control what configurations candidates show up with.

Also, let's keep in mind that the IE is not "a class" but rather "an evaluation." Technically, the rescue scenario in the IE is not to determine whether you can conduct a rescue... but rather to determine whether you can "demonstrate the skills" associated with teaching rescue.

 

[Hartattack]

I was tying in IDC and IE together apologies for not clarifying. And I see your point with how an evaluation in PADI normal gear configuration would make sense. Thats what I learned in when I first started and how others do all around the world, so doing so would be easiest for all, on the other hand, I have had a course director tell me they have seen it done in a BP/W set up and the "student" did very well and qualified. So to answer the OP, yes you can do it in an IE moreover pass an IE with a complete Back Plate, wing, long hoses and canister light set up. Just some in the community may or may not frown upon it.

 

[danvolker]

Wouldn't it be cool if you knew that every instructor that had a "certain specific certification" ( let's "pretend" this was a PADI Instructor Cert) , would be an awesome instructor for anyone YOU might send to them....a friend of a friend, a family member, whatever. Or that a dive shop you could recommend, being a PADI shop, would be safe and good for you to refer these non-divers to....that you or any of your diver friends, would know that if they knew of a "PADI shop", they could suggest this to anyone.

In the real world though, as has been pointed out many times in this thread, the instructors Exam does NOT necessarily indicate if the instructor candidate will be able to perform skills without kneeling on the bottom, it won't indicate if this candidate even knows what frog kicks or silting means....and it will certainly not indicate that a person that has become an instructor, would have any idea whatsoever, of how to help a new student get configured in a bp/wing from a major brand--to at least a level they have a shot at comfortable use and mediocre trim with it.

So in this real world, all you really have are INDIVIDUALS that you actually know the instructional skills of, to suggest to friends or family. Given the uselessness of the instructor badge, and that what you are really suggesting is limited to individuals, maybe some of us should be suggesting individuals that have no instructor certification, but are people we know to be amazingly competent at performing all the key skills, and in showing this to others....Many of us know people like this...and example in this area is Kathy Dickers--she works with people all the time as a mentor, has skills far beyond 95% of the instructor universe, but is not certified to be an instructor ( and of course, this "certification" does not indicate that the instructor is competent to teach many students anyway).

Maybe we need more people like Kathy to do the REAL training and teaching, and then when the student is skilled, call the local PADI shop and let one of their pretenda-instructors, or one of real instructors that is actually awesome, to issue the test the student will need to pass so that they can have a c card. The c-card will ONLY be required for air fills and liability for boats--it will not actually mean any thing about diver skills.The mentor ( like Kathy) will be the one responsible for the real skills.


Obviously. this is not the way I want things....I would like it if the IE was an accurate depiction we could use to KNOW that if we refer someone to an instructor, that WE did the right thing.
As PADI and NAUI and the major agencies actually monitor discussions on SB, if they heard all of us PUSHING for the real skills discussed in this thread to be tested---for the Bp/wing gear, configurations and skills to be part of this, maybe 5 years from now, the cert itself might mean something.

Or, everyone could run with the status quo, and the need for a recreational version of GUE just goes up.....Hang on...is that NASE ?

 

[demed]

Great answer.....and to me, this suggests that PADI ought to create a specialty that can be added on to the exam for an extra certification....for teacher and students all in hog rigs. I'd say either this, or an additioanl certifying agency that will cover this....But to most PADI instructors, it would be more desirable to have PADI do the whole thing than to have to add another agency cert.

great idea, there should be an addendum to the IE for each manufacturer gear you want to use as an instructor...


(I didn't know Florida legalized too)

 

[danvolker]

great idea, there should be an addendum to the IE for each manufacturer gear you want to use as an instructor...


(I didn't know Florida legalized too)

Your comment might be humorous, if not for the present situation---where an instructor could be so negligent in their ability to get a student set up in their gear ( if student shows up for class in bp/wing) that the instructor could very well FAIL to teach or assist this student in any meaningful way)....And to insist that the instructor should only have to be familiar with jacket type junk gear is ludicrous.... ( this being the way many of us see stab jackets for diving--and the way many students are hearing it from us, that stab jackets are "sloppy gear" they should stay away from....., and thus they are showing up for a class in bp/wing gear) ....

In fact, I get to speak with a large number of people considering dive instruction....and I always tell them that the jacket style bc's are a huge mistake...and not to listen to anyone pushing jacket bc's
Typically I tell them to TRY or DEMO several BC's as well as bp/wings...and to try several types of fins....Diving needs to be more like Snow Skiing where the DEMO precedes the purchase, most of the time.

Like it or not...there is a very real "division" in diving...Insist on things being done the way they were in the last 20 years, and not evolving, and a new agency will come in and take advantage of this growing "division".