BP/W for OW Student

[cool_hardware52]

Here's the problem: Back inflation rigs don't go well with typical open water classes. Because typical open water classes are taught by typical Open Water instructors (and those instructor are taught by typical certifying agencies), and they (both the instructors and the agencies) like the students on their knees for skills. (Don't ask why they like their students in this position, they just do.)

A back inflation rig will make the student tend to pitch forward, and the student will have to wave their hands around to keep themselves planted on their knees. And then the instructor will keep telling them to stop waving their hands.

This is just silly. While I do not advocate having students on their knees for instruction, there is nothing about a properly setup BP&W that will force the student forward, on the bottom or at the surface.

If the student is negative, and on the bottom there will be little to no gas in their BC, and the ballast provided by the back plate is, well ON THEIR BACK. How this results in a 'push forward" defies the physics involved.

Tobin

 

[halocline]

Here's the problem: Back inflation rigs don't go well with typical open water classes.....Open Water instructors....like the students on their knees for skills.

A back inflation rig will make the student tend to pitch forward, and the student will have to wave their hands around to keep themselves planted on their knees. And then the instructor will keep telling them to stop waving their hands.

This is absolutely false. I did my entire DM internship with a BP/W, except a few demonstration sessions where I was asked to use a jacket BC. I assisted with at least a dozen classes, did several skill circuits, and spent plenty of time kneeling on the bottom. Being stable on the bottom is a function of weighting. The students are not kneeling on the bottom with full BCs.

On the surface, it is true that jacket BCs will act a little more like a life jacket, and that makes some OW students feel more comfortable. They do spend a fair amount of time on the surface in those classes. But if your (the OP) grandson is pretty comfortable in the water, he'll be fine on the surface in a BP/W and much better off when under water.

 

[beanojones]

This is just silly. While I do not advocate having students on their knees for instruction, there is nothing about a properly setup BP&W that will force the student forward, on the bottom or at the surface.

If the student is negative, and on the bottom there will be little to no gas in their BC, and the ballast provided by the back plate is, well ON THEIR BACK. How this results in a 'push forward" defies the physics involved.

I take it has been awhile since your Open Water class, or since watching them be taught.

Typical instructors overweight students massively for the direct purpose of making sure they are planted on their knees for skills, so the student's bladder is never empty.

Typical students have no idea how to properly vent their BCDs so the idea that they will ever have no air in the BCD is but a dream, compounded by the fact that students are massively overweighted so there will always be a air in their BCD, so they never have to learn to properly vent their BCDs.

'How this results in a push forward defies the physics involved'? Are you serious, or have you just not seen any open water classes lately? Because you are dead wrong.

I know you sell the gear, but the world of diving is what it is. Including how Instructors are taught to teach classes. If we tried to pass our instructor rating courses not doing these things, we would not have become instructors. And until we have the experience to challenge some of the assumptions, we are forced to parrot what other instructors do to keep our jobs. You have to own your own shop, or just have so much experience that they cannot tell you what to do. And even then, it's hard to convince the people paying you that planting students on their knees is counterproductive.

As I have mentioned other places, instructors learn their craft once, and are never required to do any continuing education (so long as they pay their annual fees). And becoming an instructor does not require even a high school diploma, much less a secondary degree, so it is not like instructors are preselected for critical thinking. Just try and get the word out about not turning valves back after you open them, and you will see what that means. You can explain it a thousand times, but they will still teach it, because that's what they have always done. They will even invent reasons for why they do it.

Luckily it's October, so GUE is teaching Open Water now. But they have, what, 60 instructors worldwide? PADI probably still certifies more divers than the rest of the agencies combined. And the IDC and IE force you to do what everyone else is doing: doing skills in a kneeling position. You are paying two grand for the course and test, so you do what you have to do.

 

[beanojones]

This is absolutely false. I did my entire DM internship with a BP/W, except a few demonstration sessions where I was asked to use a jacket BC. I assisted with at least a dozen classes, did several skill circuits, and spent plenty of time kneeling on the bottom. Being stable on the bottom is a function of weighting. The students are not kneeling on the bottom with full BCs.

On the surface, it is true that jacket BCs will act a little more like a life jacket, and that makes some OW students feel more comfortable. They do spend a fair amount of time on the surface in those classes. But if your (the OP) grandson is pretty comfortable in the water, he'll be fine on the surface in a BP/W and much better off when under water.

Yes you, as a DM, were able to do this. You got to choose your weight, and even then they made you wear a jacket BC. You just made my point. If you were forced to change gear, imagine how much less input an actual student has.

The student will be overweighted so they can do kneeling skills. (Why kneeling skills? Who the fsck knows. Nothing is funnier than someone getting water in their mask and having to find a sandy spot to kneel down and clear their mask. Except it is not funny, it's just stupid.)

 

[cool_hardware52]

I take it has been awhile since your Open Water class, or since watching them be taught.

You are correct that it has been a while since my Open Water Class. You are dead wrong about how recently I've witnessed BOW instruction of students in BP&W's

Typical instructors overweight students massively for the direct purpose of making sure they are planted on their knees for skills, so the student's bladder is never empty.

Typical students have no idea how to properly vent their BCDs so the idea that they will ever have no air in the BCD is but a dream, compounded by the fact that students are massively overweighted so there will always be a air in their BCD, so they never have to learn to properly vent their BCDs.

Seems like the problem here is poor instruction, not poor gear selection.

Instructors that are unqualified, or unwilling to assist in proper gear setup should be avoided.

Tobin

 

[RJP]

'How this results in a push forward defies the physics involved'? Are you serious, or have you just not seen any open water classes lately? Because you are dead wrong.

Hmm...

I hadn't realized that physics had changed "recently"!?!

 

[halocline]

Typical instructors overweight students massively for the direct purpose of making sure they are planted on their knees for skills, so the student's bladder is never empty.

Typical students have no idea how to properly vent their BCDs so the idea that they will ever have no air in the BCD is but a dream, compounded by the fact that students are massively overweighted so there will always be a air in their BCD, so they never have to learn to properly vent their BCDs.

I don't know where you're getting your opinions from, but it's not exactly reality, at least not from my direct experience assisting with classes. Sure, some OW students are overweighted, not "massively" but enough so that they can get down easily and stay on the bottom easily. But the ideas that they either can't get enough air out of their BCs to stay on the bottom or that somehow a BP/W pushes them forward are just wrong. If a student is having problems staying on the bottom, we (the DM or instructor) will help them vent, (assuming there is air in the BC, usually there is not much if any) and if they still can't stay on the bottom, we'll add a weight to their cam strap. It has nothing to do with what kind of BC they're using. I've done this over and over.

And BTW, I used a jacket BC for surface skill demonstration and playing the victim in rescue classes.

 

[spectrum]

A back inflation rig will make the student tend to pitch forward, and the student will have to wave their hands around to keep themselves planted on their knees. And then the instructor will keep telling them to stop waving their hands.

All the student needs to know is that they can't pump them selves until their navel is out of the water. If they do then yes, they will face plant. Then they can kick back and lay on the raft.

Besides, would we have this discussion if it were back inflate jacket and how many instructors would pine about that?

Pete

 

[Pearldiver07]

Odd, our shop ONLY used back-inflate BCD's and I taught a few students who used BP/W. Never had an issue with flopping forward during class. When we descend, they shouldn't have excess air in their BCDs.

And they don't need excess weight. If they get into breathing too heavily, they're going to start to ascend. I'll hold them if necessary while we get their breathing back under control. But I don't ever want a student to start out thinking they can do part time work as an anchor. I also insist that my students don't stand on the platforms in the OW class - I want them working on neutral buoyancy along the railings off the edge of the platform.

You do what you see and are first taught - too many instructors take the quick and easy way. One of my proudest moments was looking over during lesson #2 in the pool to see all of my students watch my demo of a skill while hovering mid-water (and it didn't appear that any of them were struggling!!!). I'd rather they accidently break the surface swimming mid-water in the pool occasionally than not learn how to swim neutrally with their gear on.

 

[OH-JJ]

Beano,
I really don't know where you are getting your info from, but you are wrong. the reason that you "overweight" OW students, has nothing to do with planting them on the bottom. The reason is quite simple, it is to get them under water. New students and rusty divers, tend to not relax enough to sink when they are properly weighted.

As for Skills, the only skill that is remotely affected by the BP/W is the fin pivot, and then only if you are trimmed out correctly, as you tend not to pivot on your fins.

you can kneel on the bottom just fine, if you pitch forward then dump more air, it is not rocket science. Think about where the weight and center of gravity is in a BP/W rig in the Vertical position... hmm BP 5-6 Lbs plus tank... minus bouancy from diver and suit.... hmm with an empty wing, that would put the center of gravity BEHIND the diver's back.