BP/W for me and my son?

[bryanmc57]

And.. engaging in a personal attack .., rather than addressing how much reserve buoyancy might be desirable - doesn't serve to justify your recommendations.

While I see what you're trying to say, I don't setup my gear based on other folks who don't set up their gear properly any more than I carry extra gasoline in my car for those folks who can't prepare for their fuel needs accurately.

 

[cool_hardware52]

And.. engaging in a personal attack .., rather than addressing how much reserve buoyancy might be desirable - doesn't serve to justify your recommendations.

I know, I know, I can dive anyway I want..

Oh yeah.. I gave him a full refund and didn't charge him for any of the emergency oxygen he used on the boat... do I get points for that?

Uh well, no. I never attacked you personally, not once. I simply cited the facts as you presented them. Did you not post that you sold the diver the negative steel tank that lead to his unbalanced rig and the sold him the BC that failed, apparently immediately, after the start of the dive that lead to you having to rescue him?

Not sure how a recitation of the facts as you provided them could considered an attack. Please explain.

Tobin

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Uh well, no. I never attacked you personally, not once. I simply cited the facts as you presented them. Did you not post that you sold the diver the negative steel tank that lead to his unbalanced rig and the sold him the BC that failed, apparently immediately, after the start of the dive that lead to you having to rescue him?

Not sure how a recitation of the facts as you provided them could considered an attack. Please explain.

Tobin

No I prefer not to explain. We can move on.

However, for full disclosure and accuracy, the buddy bailed on me (I continued to dive) and then he made a very strenuous ascent fighting alot of weight all the way to the surface and he was very winded. He is young and strong.. a weaker person would not have made it. So the situation should have resulted in me helping him to the surface.

Afterwards I explained to him that he should have at least told me he had a problem instead of bailing on me. I explained that with the excess capacity of my BC, it would have been trivial for him to just hold on to me and I would have easily been able to handle the extra weight and we would have made a non-strenuous ascent together - no kicking required.

Of course someone could question why I continued to dive when a buddy disappears but it was a drift dive in strong current, so separation is not that unusual.

I remembered this dive when I was trying to come up with a situation which you described as "angels on the head of a needle" or something. I COULD have helped him, I SHOULD have helped him but I didn't do anything in this actual situation. - so no rescue.

The point I have tried to make is that it can be helpful to have some extra lift capacity.. Even on the surface in rough seas.. it might be nice to have some extra lift.

6 weeks ago, I found a weightbelt with like 16 lbs of lead on it on the bottom in 100 ft. I simply put the belt on, added air to the Wing and continued my dive. I've found over 20 weight belts while diving. Having the extra capacity to easily recover a weightbelt is another benefit- although most people would find that example trivial or not applicable to them, I suppose.

If anyone cares, I happened to save the raw video of the dive for my own analysis. At 1:30, you get a glimpse of a diver kicking hard to hold position and he is like 6-10 ft from me, but he does not signal and I didn't notice his difficulties..
I think I was trying out a wrist mount, which did not render any really stable video.

[video=youtube_share;P1o6LTlTMm0]http://youtu.be/P1o6LTlTMm0[/video]

 

[cool_hardware52]

No I prefer not to explain. We can move on.

You accused me of making a personal attack. I never attacked you.

Now you refuse / can't back up that accusation.

I'm owed an explanation.

Tobin

 

[beaverdivers]

For those of you that think 5'6", 109 lbs is abnormal, here's a kids size chart from the Aqualung site. These suit are the best we can find to fit the many tall skinny kids that we train. Sometimes even these full 3mm suits are a bit short. Maybe Colorado is unusual; we are one the fittest states.

I have a great deal of experience teaching these type of kids & ( adults ) with low body fat. In the pool, some of these kids need zero weight with an AL63 wearing a 3mm suit. Yes, it is a fresh water pool. They are wearing a very small jacket B.C. We do have them practice with a weight belt, but find many of them end up needing 2 one pound weights or zero weight even when the AL63 is down to 500 psi.

SIZE	WEIGHT	HEIGHT (C)	SIZE	AGE
XS	45 - 55 lbs.	40” - 44”	4 - 6	4 - 5
SM	50 - 60 lbs.	44” - 52”	6 - 8	6 - 8
MD	55 - 70 lbs.	52” - 56”	8 - 10	9 - 10
LG	70 - 85 lbs.	55” - 60”	10 - 12	11 - 12
XL	85 - 100 lbs.	58” - 63”	12 - 14	13 - 15
2XL	100 - 115 lbs.	62” - 66”	14 - 16	14 - 16
3XL	115 - 130 lbs.	63” - 67”	16 - 18	14 - 16

 

[cool_hardware52]

For those of you that think 5'6", 109 lbs is abnormal, here's a kids size chart from the Aqualung site.

I never said there are no kids that are 5'6" tall and 109 lbs.

People this slender seldom dive with zero buoyancy exposure suits.

I've fit many thousands of people for BP&W, and quite a few wanted recommendations for wives and kids that fit this description.

Virtually every one was using at least a 3mm suit, and many were using a 5mm in Tropical conditions.

Surly you know that divers in the real world wear more exposure suit than they do in a heated Pool during confined water training?

Tobin

 

[beaverdivers]

Surly you know that divers in the real world wear more exposure suit than they do in a heated Pool during confined water training?

Tobin

Actually, we have our students wear 3mm full suits in a heated pool ( 84 degrees ) due to the fact our pool sessions are 3 hours. As I mentioned, these skinny people hardly need any weight in a full 3mm suit.

I agree they should wear a 3mm ( or even a 5mm) full suit even in 80+ degree water, however many don't. When the water gets 84 degrees & warmer, then most divers go to thinner suits.

I have a SCUBA course (a 3 hour pool session ) to teach, so I will continue this friendly discussion later. BTW, I have been actively teaching SCUBA for 36 years.

 

[cool_hardware52]

I agree they should wear a 3mm ( or even a 5mm) full suit even in 80+ degree water, however many don't. When the water gets 84 degrees & warmer, then most divers go to thinner suits.

One more time, people with some bio-prene often dive in tropical conditions with very little exposure suit.

Skinny kids rarely do.

BTW, I have been actively teaching SCUBA for 36 years.

The fact that after 36 years you still don't know how to quantitatively determine required BC lift isn't all that shocking, sad, but not shocking.

The advent of the "Stab Jacket" BC with a "one lift capacity fits all" mentality effectively eliminated this topic from the LDS / teach towards selling what you stock dive training.

No need to understand lift 'cuz' that BC in the corner is what you need and what it's I'm going to recommend…...




Tobin

 

[Adobo]

I never said there are no kids that are 5'6" tall and 109 lbs.

People this slender seldom dive with zero buoyancy exposure suits.

I've fit many thousands of people for BP&W, and quite a few wanted recommendations for wives and kids that fit this description.

Virtually every one was using at least a 3mm suit, and many were using a 5mm in Tropical conditions.

Surly you know that divers in the real world wear more exposure suit than they do in a heated Pool during confined water training?

Tobin

I was the one commenting on divers (kids) of those proportions.

[-]Yes, we can look at size charts to point out that these kids exist. Heck, I can walk into any middle school to point out that these kids exist. That's not quite the same as this size diver being anything more than minuscule fraction of the total diver population in the US. [/-]

[-]But let's give it the benefit of the doubt. Maybe we are talking Asian divers who live and dive somewhere in the Pacific, in which case, this type of dive maybe a significant proportion of the population. How a dive shop in Colorado is selling gear to the Asian market is beyond me, but good for them, I guess.[/-] I'm still having trouble understanding how an aluminum or a kydex plate is inherently more dangerous than a jacket BC for tropical water divers. Has there been an explanation to that which I did not read?

Edit: Actually, to be fair to beaver divers, the original poster of this thread specifically mentions a diver of these proportions. So whether or not divers of that size is common is not really relevant. Which then just leaves my other question... what makes an al or kydex plate solution inherently dangerous for such a diver who wants to dive in the tropics?

 

[JohnN]

I was the one commenting on divers (kids) of those proportions.

Yes, we can look at size charts to point out that these kids exist. Heck, I can walk into any middle school to point out that these kids exist. That's not quite the same as this size diver being anything more than minuscule fraction of the total diver population.

But let's give it the benefit of the doubt. Assuming that these kinds of divers were significant enough proportion of the diver population to warrant consideration, I'm still having trouble understanding how an aluminum or a kydex plate is inherently any more dangerous than a jacket BC for tropical water divers. Has there been an explanation to that which I did not read?

Hmmm. . . they are not sold by a $ubapro Platinum dealer??