BP/W for a New Diver

[Deep South Divers]

Hey Tobin... Could the differences in what's being reported be a difference in backplate angle or spine height?

The one that I use on my singles that I prefer the STA is an original Scott Koplin "medium" (normal) ss plate from like 2001.

Also, all of my tanks are equipped with Thermo convertible valves and Thermo isolators manifolds. I noticed the other day at a Halcyon store that their valves are much shorter than mine... Although not convertible (proper DINs).

I can only imagine that these would create significant differences in fit.

My first stages are Dive Rites, Apeks DS4s, FSTs, and FSRs.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Hey Tobin... Could the differences in what's being reported be a difference in backplate angle or spine height?

Head to valve contact is "reported" by very few. Most just dive.

Also, all of my tanks are equipped with Thermo convertible valves and Thermo isolators manifolds. I noticed the other day at a Halcyon store that their valves are much shorter than mine... Although not convertible (proper DINs).

I can only imagine that these would create significant differences in fit.

Head to Iso cross bar won't differ with valve depth.

My first stages are Dive Rites, Apeks DS4s, FSTs, and FSRs.

Some first stages project further than others and stacking a Din reg on a din to yoke converter is about the worst.

The reality is most divers report no problems, a few do, and the majority of these can be accommodated by altering tank position or rotating the cylinder slightly. Promoting the idea that every diver needs to add a STA serves to confuse new divers and is a disservice to most.

I'll add that ~25% of our new BP&W users "report" that the corrugated hose furnished is "too short". When questioned they will "report" that the DSS hose is "much shorter" than the hose on their old BC. I routinely advise them to try the furnished length for a few more dives. Nearly all discover that what they thought was "too short" is actually "just right" once they get used to it, if they give it a little time.

Imagine that, an "internet problem" fades away in the real world.



Tobin

 

[TSandM]

Those tanks were Al80s.

I don't find my head pounding the isolator knob on my doubles . . . it's my MK25s pointing inward BELOW the bar. I found that if I aimed one of them outward, it helps a lot. That's a better solution than Natalie Gibbs', which is turning the head sideways to look in front of you, which creates a very distorted view of the world.

 

[Deep South Divers]

Head to valve contact is "reported" by very few. Most just dive.

Hm. I "just dive" too... Every day. But I found I like the STA for reasons previously mentioned. Apparently there are others that have the same opinion. I've never seen anyone promote "no STA" until now, with you and TS&M, both of whom I respect. I just find it interesting and unusual.

You didn't answer the question, though.

The reality is most divers report no problems, a few do, and the majority of these can be accommodated by altering tank position or rotating the cylinder slightly. Promoting the idea that every diver needs to add a STA serves to confuse new divers and is a disservice to most.

I wasn't "promoting" anything, and certainly not anything for "every diver." I was just conveying my experience, and wondering why there was such a big difference between my (and others) and your and TS&Ms experience.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Hm. I "just dive" too... Every day. But I found I like the STA for reasons previously mentioned. Apparently there are others that have the same opinion. I've never seen anyone promote "no STA" until now, with you and TS&M, both of whom I respect.

I've been selling direct mount BP&W's since 2005, it's hardly a recent innovation. I've produced and sold many thousands of them. We have never offered systems with STA. The vast majority of our users report no problems. A few do. A fair percentage that do report problems did so because their instructor / LDS / internet guru told them to expect problems (and those could be solved if they just got a system with a STA)

STA's are not a universal cure for fit problems. STA's cause problems too.

The typical STA will move the cylinder less than 1/2 inch further from the diver. That about the same as switching from a 7" dia tank to 8" diameter tank in terms of valve / reg position relative to the divers head. Is a 1/2" really going to keep one from "banging" into their reg?

OTOH most STA's severely limit the choice of tank height position. Most STA's have a single pair of camband slots positioned at the extreme end of the STA. That forces the tank crown to be well above the top of the back plate. That may or may not be the best position for reg clearance or horizontal trim. (A few STA's now offer a second lower set of camband slots, humm I wonder why?)

Direct mount systems (no STA) feature camband slots in the wing and plate. These slots are lower and closer together. That allows for a much greater range of tank height positions. Moving the tank so the valve is not directly behind the divers head is much more effective than spacing it away 3/8 ~ 1/2"

Tobin

 

[timten]

I purchased a DSS 30 around a year ago. I have only three dives on it (had a baby), I'll admit my first dive I hit my head on the reg. I also had it set way to loose, from reading all these type threads. A few months later I tightened it up and lowered the tank no even an inch and I never felt a thing, and I was trying to. I haven't dove with anyone else that has a BP/W so I'm still in the middle of trial and error. On The third dive I discovered 2 really good things, this wing vents a lot faster/easier then my last Back inflate BC. I was trying to avoid a class coming in to shore and dumped way more air then I wanted and landed on top of someone. It turned out that person parked next to us so I benifitted from how fast the rig was to take down as they where looking around for the guy with a DSS wing that kicked him in the face. Really sorry if your a SB member. So far I love this rig and hope to get a lot of dives on it. Oh and dropping some weight of my belt was nice.

 

[mahjong]

I'm not surprised that very few report problems. "Very few" is probably an accurate gloss on the demographic of people as short as me.

Adjust, adapt, and dive...I certainly do this. In fact, my go to travel rig is a little DR wing sandwiched between a Scubapro plastic backpack and mounting plate (poached from an old Knighthawk--see pics below). This lifts the tank off my back probably little more than your direct mounting rigs, or perhaps no more. I go this route because it requires only a single cam band for a secure lockdown, and I see no need for two cam bands when traveling. I mount the tank low and lift the tank off my butt with two hands while finning around. Maybe I might enjoy the dive without cursing AL80s, maybe not. I'm off to Belize with this rig in a couple weeks. I'll let you know my curse rate, unless I can find some steel tanks down there.

When I dove at least once a week, 4 to 5 AL80s each all-day outing, spearfishing in HK (my routine for over 2 years when I lived there), I went with a SS BP (Scubapro--very deep spine)/wing (Halcyon)/STA (Halcyon). To hunt grouper inside rock holes, I was always twisting and turning and often going upside down. It was a definite improvement to have the tank off my back a bit. I had less head contact with my reg and a much liberated butt.

Paul

 

[buddhasummer]

I've been selling direct mount BP&W's since 2005, it's hardly a recent innovation. I've produced and sold many thousands of them. We have never offered systems with STA. The vast majority of our users report no problems. A few do. A fair percentage that do report problems did so because their instructor / LDS / internet guru told them to expect problems (and those could be solved if they just got a system with a STA)

STA's are not a universal cure for fit problems. STA's cause problems too.

The typical STA will move the cylinder less than 1/2 inch further from the diver. That about the same as switching from a 7" dia tank to 8" diameter tank in terms of valve / reg position relative to the divers head. Is a 1/2" really going to keep one from "banging" into their reg?

OTOH most STA's severely limit the choice of tank height position. Most STA's have a single pair of camband slots positioned at the extreme end of the STA. That forces the tank crown to be well above the top of the back plate. That may or may not be the best position for reg clearance or horizontal trim. (A few STA's now offer a second lower set of camband slots, humm I wonder why?)

Direct mount systems (no STA) feature camband slots in the wing and plate. These slots are lower and closer together. That allows for a much greater range of tank height positions. Moving the tank so the valve is not directly behind the divers head is much more effective than spacing it away 3/8 ~ 1/2"

Tobin

Yes, I use an AGIR STA for this very reason, not sure why more STAs don't come with two top slots I wouldn't have thought cutting two extra slots would cost anymore(?)

 

[cool_hardware52]

Yes, I use an AGIR STA for this very reason, not sure why more STAs don't come with two top slots I wouldn't have thought cutting two extra slots would cost anymore(?)

I doubt it has anything to do with cost. It costs a bit more to add more slots, but it's pretty small. I'd say it's just a more recent recognition that STA's can create as many problems as they purport to solve.

We've sold many thousands of BP&W's. We offer 5 sizes of plates, and have sold hundreds of small plates. While these are not "Golden Arches" type numbers it's clearly a large enough sample to determine if the dreaded "head dangerously banging into the reg" problem is widespread. It's not.

Most divers quickly adapt if their rig is correctly setup, and they haven't been preconditioned to expect a problem.

Tobin

 

[mahjong]

I have an Agir STA as well. Very nice. It's already shorter than most standard STA's and so even the outer cam slots are closer together than most, plus you have the third one if need be. They designed the STA for shorter steel tanks, I think particularly Faber LP95's, which seem to be popular over there. With the long boot on these shorter fatter steel tanks, standard STA's without a third cam slot are almost too long for a secure mount.

I still need to order some metric star hand nuts from Europe to use with the Agir STA (or, Agir offered to rethread the bolt holes for 3/8" imperial).

Yes, I use an AGIR STA for this very reason, not sure why more STAs don't come with two top slots I wouldn't have thought cutting two extra slots would cost anymore(?)