BP/W for a New Diver

[TSandM]

Halcyon sits at what is typically the highest price point. In my opinion, there is equally good or better gear available at lower prices.

As far as wing size goes . . . diving a 17 lb wing with a 3 mil wetsuit (if you like 3 mil wetsuits) is a delight. The wing is so small, it creates virtually no drag, and because there's no place for the air to "hide", it vents effortlessly. But you can certainly USE a 30 lb wing in warm water -- you just may have to do a little more contorting to get air to somewhere it can vent. The perfect solution is to have both, but as money is an object for most of us, you can start with a wing you can use in cold water, and invest in another one if you find you are doing a lot of warm water travel and want to make things just so.

Most wings have two ways to vent -- through the inflator hose, and through a pull dump on the left lower part of the wing. This is actually quite sufficient. The pull dump works well if you are horizontal or a little bit head down; the inflator hose works fine if you are even the least bit head up. With horseshoe wings, if you are venting a lot, you may have to go a little head up to equalize gas between the two halves of the wing, but this is momentary, and if you are properly weighted and the wing is not oversized, you may never notice this at all.

Give Tobin (cool hardware 52 above) a call. He will walk you through the calculations on plates and wing lift, and he will not sell you something he doesn't think you'll be delighted to own and use.

 

[Aqua-Andy]

Here you go DRIS Dive Gear 28lb BP/W System - Dive Right In Scuba - Plainfield, IL The only iffy part of the rig would be the wing, if I already did not have a single tank wing this would be the one I would purchase. I would not have any problem buying from DRIS as they have excellent customer service. Tobin from DSS also has very good gear and customer service,his single tank systens seam pretty slick. I personally would not purchase a Halcyon rig for that much money, there are plenty of other quality gear manufacturers out there that don't make you pay for a name.

 

[Deep South Divers]

Yep, that's the one I was talking about for $299. ^^^^^ Looks pretty slick. Time will tell how it wears. At that price point, I'm skeptical of the quality - but it sure does look sweet. We'll see whether or not the owner can wear it out.

On the other hand, for not much more you can get Tobin's expertise, which can be priceless for setup and customer service, if you go through him. I really don't think that there's a bad piece of advice on this thread.

 

[Deep South Divers]

Thanks for your response.

My existing BC works fine. I think I'll address my weight & trim issues "bubba" style---lead, straps, tie wraps...maybe even a little duct tape---while I gather more BP/W information.

Hahahaaa! Yeah, I think we all do that. I have a license to, being in South Cackalackey.

FWIW, many BCs have weight pockets built into the back, on either side of the tank. These are for nonditchable weight. I have found that placing a 3-pounder in each somewhat simulates the trim characterisitcs of a stainless steel backplate... Although, of course, you don't get the additional benefits such as streamlining, modularity, and increased stability for the tank...

...And no duct tape needed.

Don't forget to reweight youself in accordance with your training. That and using the weight pockets on the back will minimize your need for additional "Bubbaing."

 

[Aqua-Andy]

Thanks for your response.

My existing BC works fine. I think I'll address my weight & trim issues "bubba" style---lead, straps, tie wraps...maybe even a little duct tape---while I gather more BP/W information.

I don't know if you have tried this yet but the only way I could get trimmed out in my jacket style BC is to put a three pound ankle weight around the tank valve. Inexpensive but effective.

 

[3D diver]

I don't know if you have tried this yet but the only way I could get trimmed out in my jacket style BC is to put a three pound ankle weight around the tank valve. Inexpensive but effective.

Thanks, I'd forgot about that trick. I picked up some 1 and 2lb coated bullet weights yesterday and distributed them on the tank straps. I believe my new drysuit underwear require 3 to 5 lbs more weight & will have to experiment a bit to get the final value.

My BC doesn't have any rear pockets...wait...nope...walked out to the garage & checked.

 

[gcarter]

Hahahaaa! Yeah, I think we all do that. I have a license to, being in South Cackalackey.

FWIW, many BCs have weight pockets built into the back, on either side of the tank. These are for nonditchable weight. I have found that placing a 3-pounder in each somewhat simulates the trim characterisitcs of a stainless steel backplate... Although, of course, you don't get the additional benefits such as streamlining, modularity, and increased stability for the tank...

...And no duct tape needed.

Don't forget to reweight youself in accordance with your training. That and using the weight pockets on the back will minimize your need for additional "Bubbaing."

I currently use 3 in each pocket, thinking about switching to 4's as I am a bit foot heavy. They make a huge difference in trim.

 

[mahjong]

Certainly agree about STA's. They're no big deal, and easy to dismantle if you bolt down your rig with those 4-star speed nuts. And they are more stable, but stability is not really an issue with a proper STA-less rig. Sure, it's nice if you are tall enough to be able to dive with an AL80 resting STA-less on your back and not have your reg banging you in the back of the head or have the bottom of the tank straight-jacketing your lower back/butt.

I didn't put it strongly the first time I made the point, but, honestly, I do know that there will be trouble in tropical paradise for the OP, at 5'1", if she were to dive an AL80 tank STA-less. I am 5'4" and I have done it and I will never do it again. I could neither lift my head up in order to see straight, nor could I arch my back. I ended up cocking my head sideways to avoid the reg, and lifting the bottom of my tank off my butt with my two hands, while also angling the tank to get the reg/valve away from my head. It was horrible. I wanted to doff my rig and carry it under my arm, like a side-mount.

In short, you have to be tall to dive comfortably without an STA, unless you're diving 20" MP72's or something like that. Even with an STA and a deep-spine backplate, an AL80 will not be the most comfortable tank for someone at 5'1". But the STA will improve diving comfort considerably with those evil tropical tanks.

Hm. Interesting that some people are of the opinion of "no STA." I have never seen that before now.

My opinion of STAs is more like this:



I find that a STA-less wing tends to hold the tank valve/reg TOO close to my head without a STA... And with the tank off, a STA'd rig holds together much more nicely because it's bolted together. For what it's worth, Halcyon USED to make STA-less wings but has since done away with the feature.

I'm a big fan of Halcyon wings but the "hourglass" Low-profile Oxycheq "light" STA originally designed by Scott Koplin.

Cam bands: I'm a pretty big fan of the new Highland cam bands that completely come apart when you release them. They make assembling your tank/rig MUCH easier than the traditional method because you can assemble it horizontally. A HUGE improvement over standard cam bands.

FWIW, DSS and Scubapro also have similar "full release" cam band designs, but the Highlands are super sweet.



Ditto. Love Oxycheq's hardware, plates and STAs. Prefer Halcyon's 30-pound Eclipse wing and would recommend it. It's a great starting point, and will serve you for doing any sort of diving you want to do. I would buy additional plates or wings later as "accessories" to the rig I'm recommending if you want to make changes or improvements in more specialized areas with the rig.





Not likely. In fact, don't get your heart set on the '"no weight" concept... You'll probably still have to wear a little, depending on water salinity, temperature, and your exposure protection... Which is good. Stick with the steel, IMHO.



Often a wing smaller than 30 pounds is actually a SHORTENED 30-pound wing... In other words, it's the same width and therefore no more streamlined than a 30 pound wing. The whole idea of having such a small amount of lift (compared to traditional BCs) is the streamlining... So if there's no streamlining advantage to the smaller wing, there's no advantage.

Stick with the 30-pounder. Accessorize later with a smaller wing if you like the idea later.



No. In fact, the 30-pounder is MADE for warm water. The 40-pounder is Halcyon's "cold water" version of a singles wing.



There's a lot of calculations that go into an answer, but as a whole, no. Generally speaking, wings with 18-20 lbs of lift are designed with the "no wetsuit" diver (as in "skin" or bathing suit only) in mind. What you're describing is a 30-pound wing.



Sorry, no experience with that particular wing. Will check it out next weekend. My favorite is the Halcyon Eclipse 30, although the Oxycheq Mach V is very interesting.

 

[halocline]

It sounds ideal to use a steel backplate and not have to wear additional weights, but I worry about being overweighted...

It really depends on what kind of tank you're using. If it's an AL80, that tank is 4 lbs positive empty, so a steel plate offsets the tank buoyancy quite nicely. Steel tanks, you might be a little heavy in a steel plate, it depends on your wetsuit. Personally in warm water I try to use a steel plate with Al tanks and vice-versa. Putting weights on the cam bands of an AL (or plastic) plate does almost the same thing as using a steel plate, although IMO there is a slight difference in feel. I don't really know why, except with the steel plate the weight is evenly distributed across your back. Its a very nice stable feeling.

 

[Deep South Divers]

Certainly agree about STA's.

(snip)

I didn't put it strongly the first time I made the point, but, honestly, I do know that there will be trouble in tropical paradise for the OP, at 5'1", if she were to dive an AL80 tank STA-less. I am 5'4" and I have done it and I will never do it again. I could neither lift my head up in order to see straight, nor could I arch my back. I ended up cocking my head sideways to avoid the reg, and lifting the bottom of my tank off my butt with my two hands, while also angling the tank to get the reg/valve away from my head. It was horrible. I wanted to doff my rig and carry it under my arm, like a side-mount.

LOL! Glad to know it wasn't just me.

I'm 6'1" and same problem with a STA-less wing. Pretty flexible in the shoulders, too, so I tend to wear my plate very low. Nope... Still whacked me in the head without a STA.

It really depends on what kind of tank you're using. If it's an AL80, that tank is 4 lbs positive empty, so a steel plate offsets the tank buoyancy quite nicely. Steel tanks, you might be a little heavy in a steel plate, it depends on your wetsuit. Personally in warm water I try to use a steel plate with Al tanks and vice-versa. Putting weights on the cam bands of an AL (or plastic) plate does almost the same thing as using a steel plate, although IMO there is a slight difference in feel. I don't really know why, except with the steel plate the weight is evenly distributed across your back. Its a very nice stable feeling.

+1 - totally agree.

I notice weights on the cam bands if I roll sideways while diving... Like if I look over at a buddy or need to work sideways. It's like it moves my center of gravity up above (away) from my back, and if I roll onto my side, the rig wants to take me on over and "turtle" me.

I find the same happens with heavy steel doubles and an aluminum plate... Although with a rig like that I'm usually in overhead and don't need to roll sideways.

...Which is why all of my rigs are steel plates and aluminum tanks for work. People bust on the AL80 all the time, saying that they don't like how "floaty" they are, but man, they sure do a nice job for me with a steel plate. in terms of trim. Quick to rig as stages, too. Love 'em. Can do anything with them - and to them, 'cause they tend not to corrode very easily (no paint on mine).

If I use an HP steel tank or S80N (neutral empty), then I find that I need an aluminum plate to be properly weighted... But once again, the "turtling" issue returns - albeit slightly.

If anyone has any of those horrible AL80 "evil" tropical tanks they want to get rid of, PM me.