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jepuskar,
Watch out....northeastwrecks and divepartner1 are already drafting bills and sending them to you. Expect to pay about $150-$300 per hour EACH for all the time they have spent and continue to spend replying to your questions.
 
O-ring once bubbled...
jepuskar,
Watch out....northeastwrecks and divepartner1 are already drafting bills and sending them to you. Expect to pay about $150-$300 per hour EACH for all the time they have spent and continue to spend replying to your questions.

Cute, O-Ring, very cute.

BTW, please send me your address for billing purposes (note that I take dive equipment in trade).:jester:
 
You claim the captain of the Aggressor made a good decision by going to Big Creek.

You also claim the captain of the WD made a bad (or even criminal) decision by going to the same place.

Both boats were moored before the storm hit.

In fact, the WD was next to the Aggressor - we know this because there apparently was contact between the two when the lines parted on the WD (never mind that it was reported that they were tied up next to each other.)

You probably have never had a day of real sea time in your life - and it shows.

Here are the facts, some of which I've posted before, some of which are just blooming obvious to anyone who has ever DONE any time at sea.

1. You DO NOT, ever, head into the oncoming winds of a major storm while pinned against a lee shore. To head north would have been to do exactly that, and such an act with a closing hurricane from the NE would be suicidal.

2. ALL of the boats which took shelter in Big Creek, including the Aggressor and WD, knew this simple and known rule of basic seamanship. They all followed it.

3. ALL of the boats that took shelter in Big Creek calculated that the best shot of being on the outbound side of the storm was to be there rather than in Belize City, and made their decision accordingly. As it turned out they were a bit too far north. But there was no way to know this with certainty until after the event.

4. Iris was a powerful but very compact storm. Being off by 50 miles one way or the other was the difference between a nice blow and a crushing storm. The track error up to the point that gale-force winds hit Big Creek was sufficient to insure that no truly safe harbor decision was available to anyone. That all the captains made the same deciision - to go to Big Creek - says quite a bit.

5. NONE of the decisions made prior to the mooring at Big Creek are relavent in any way, shape or form. ALL were not simply WD's decision made alone, they were decisions made along with many others, acting independantly, who all came to the same conclusion and arrived at the same place! You want to attack WD's decision but not Aggressors - why is that? Is it because Aggressor and all the rest didn't founder? What's the test here - is it success or a proper decision process? You can't have the former in a storm - if you think you can then STAY ON DRY LAND, because you have no business being at sea. If the criteria is the latter, then you have to square your claims with Aggressor and others who were there and survived pretty much intact.

5. If you want to argue that WD's moorings were "insufficient" or "negligent" I will tell you up front that you are uninformed and almost certainly full of crap. Why? Because this much I can ASSURE you - when there is a storm coming every captain is every other captain's keeper and big brother. If the Aggressor thought that WD's mooring was insufficient, they would have helped to fix that and would have fixed it no matter what it took, including but not limited to handing over extra ground tackle for their use. This is not a matter of being nice, its a matter of self-defense. In a storm your greatest risk of getting wrecked and/or killed is some other boat getting loose and impacting YOURS! EVERY captain in that harbor would have been paying A LOT of attention to EVERY other boat's mooring anywhere near them, and would have all checked each other's moorings out and approved them. Again, this is not "being nice", its SELF DEFENSE! I have added doublers to boats in MY marina when an approaching storm threatened and one of my neighbors was not sufficiently tied - even in one case where I provided the lines! Again, just to make sure you all understand this - I wasn't being nice - I was engaging in self-defense. If you don't understand this very simple part of managing a boat in a blow then you lack the understanding to comment on this incident.

6. WD got to the harbor before the storm. They also got the boat secured before the storm hit. You cannot argue that the decision to seek shelter there was a bad one when the port was made before the blow hit, yet not argue that the same decision by every other captain there was equally negligent. WHEN the call was made was not relevant - none of the boats there could have moved, because they would have all had to violate rule #1 above to move northward, and only a fool runs further than one must with a storm at their back, especially if their boat is slower than the storm is. Thus none of them could run north, and none could run south. They went where they went because it was the best available option.

7. If you can PROVE that the crew prevented pax from disembarking (difficult, when it has been clearly reported that bus transport out of there wa offered) then you'd have a case. As for the other charges of radios removed maliciously and such, I'd like to see some proof of those charges by a board of inquiry or some other independant government or NGO agency. So far all I've heard is bald assertions.

8. As for the allegation that the captain threatened to fire any crew that tried to desert the ship, I applaud that move. I would have done the same thing, as having the full ship's complement available when you are in storm conditions is important to safety.

An attempt to punish this company for an the consequences of an act of God is outrageous and beyond the pale. I have seen nothing that merits a claim that the captain acted criminally - or negligently.

I also see evidence that the passengers made the final decision to stay aboard, were offered transportation inland, and that they declined - thus knowing of and accepting the specific risk of being aboard during the storm.

If you can refute any of the above, take your best shot. Just realize that if you demonstrate a lack of knowledge of the sea when doing so, I'm gonna excoriate you here, in public, as you are trying to do to this firm.
 
Ok, Genesis,

Just to be clear, you place no blame on the captain/crew and feel bad luck or fate caused this tragic sinking.


BTW, I'm a little unclear about your number 1, I thought they could have headed north BEFORE the storm hit?
 
I am commenting only on what has been presented.

I don't necessarily believe in "bad luck", but I do believe in acts of God and acts beyond your control. There is some belief that the WD was hit by a rogue boat that was not secured, and there is some evidence to support this theory, but no hard facts.

That theory, by the way, is consistent with how a lot of boats "buy it" during storms! In fact its one of the biggest causes of damaged or destroyed boats during a hurricane.

The argument about stability problems and the entire rant about "flags of convenience" does not hold water. The reports all say that the boat was effectively driven aground and flipped by the wind. Reserve stability is not a factor in such an incident since you're being held at the bottom by the ground underneath the boat. Further, the kind of stability standard that at least one poster here seems to be demanding can be met only by certain very specialized boats, none of which would be much good for carrying pax or diving (the USCG has one such boat here in Destin; its a mid-40-footer that is designed to survive a rollover, and in fact they have intentionally rolled it during storms as a training exercise!) Passenger vessels are almost impossible to design and build to those sorts of standards - a cruise ship, for example, would not have a snowball's chance in hades of surviving such an event. The efforts at having and maintaining watertight integrity for the hull in such a vessel are extreme - and necessary - or stability and the righting moment is lost as the interior fills with water.

Before I condemn a captain or crew I want to see hard evidence of malfeasance, and what I've seen thus far just doesn't get there.

In fact, it appears they did most everything right - certainly they did what everyone else in the area appeared to do. Reviewing the NOAA images of the storm and the timeline, being where they were when they were, I probably would have elected to hole up in exactly the same place.

If you and 20 other people do the same thing (hole up in the same place) and you get nailed and the other 19 don't, that doesn't mean your decision was bad. In fact, your decision probably was good - you just got unlucky or God played a cruel twist of fate on you. It happens!

I fault the pax for staying on board - but that was their choice. I would not have stayed on board - the vis would have been blown out and so would the sea conditions for days after the storm passed, so I would have had nothing to lose in terms of the charter by leaving the boat. Then again I have a great respect for the sea.

You can't head north "before" the storm hits IF the storm could accelerate and pin you in any view of the potential path and speed. By the time the storm took its jog southwest, the option to run north was already foreclosed due to the proximity of the storm to the coast. I would not have attempted that maneuver. No way, no how, and for those of you who argue otherwise please let me know you're running the boat before we leave the dock so I can choose not to depart with you in command!

I've looked extensively at charts of that area the last few days while this thread has been going on. That's an ugly coast to get caught on during a storm. You have a very long lee shore with a storm coming from the west and a reef system that makes the entire coastal water area extremely hazardous to be in. You've got no way to run either North or South and get out of there - north takes too long and south is foreclosed by land; a SW-moving storm will trap and bury you. There are few good options for holing up during a blow along the coast there in general; Big Creek looks to be about the best option available from what I can see.

Once the point was reached that a north escape was unreasonable the remaining computation is how long it takes to get to your hurricane hole and get moored before the storm hits. There is no immediate need to depart for that location instantly, and in fact there is some value in NOT doing so, since if you're wrong about the storm direction (e.g. it takes a DIFFERENT jog) you might have further options available to you, especially with a storm as small as this one was.

Once you commit to running you have to be right - you foreclose options by choosing to move. With a storm threatening you want options if possible.

If the storm had decided to jog NW instead of SW, for instance, WD's captain would have looked prescient while the Aggressor would have aborted their trip for nothing. Even worse, there were real risks in buying the SW turn was all there was going to be - what if it had turned due south?

Its always easy to analyze things in the past tense and show what someone should have done, knowing the outcome. I looked at this WITHOUT looking at the later projections, wind speed and path of the storm, looking ONLY at the weather maps up to the point the anchor was pulled.

From where I sit the Big Creek decision looks good on that basis, and it was not made "too late" they DID get there and get moored before they were hit.
 
Move the decimal point to the left a couple places and I just might consider that value worth the posts presented.

I can just imagine diving with either of em...wait a minute, I forgot...my diving skills are not good enough too.
 
I gotta be nice to divepartner1 ...he works near me and could always find me and beat me up.

:hiding:
 
After reading everything that I could find about this, I am going to have to agree with Genesis on this one. It appears to me that the captain made good sound decisions, given the circumstances.

A lot of the blame is being laid on the captains decision to come in late, and therfore having the worst available spot in the safest available port. The problem I have with that, is one of the many boats there would end up with that spot, it just happened to be the WD this time. If they had come in earlier, they might have had the spot occupied by the Aggressor. If that is true, then the Aggressor could have been the ship to go down. Would we be having this discussion now if it were the Aggressor that went down. Yes, I am sure we would. However, I feel that it would not have been brought up by the same people, who have lost loved ones and friends in this accident. It would have been brought up by those who lost someone on the Aggressor.

Also, I believe completely in personal responsibility. The passengers chose to stay aboard. They were not held at gunpoint. Maybe they were told they would not get a refund, or something to that nature. I ask, what is more important? A refund, or your life? They made the decision, and as callous as it sounds, they are the only ones responsible for the outcome.
 
jepuskar once bubbled...
Move the decimal point to the left a couple places and I just might consider that value worth the posts presented.

I can just imagine diving with either of em...wait a minute, I forgot...my diving skills are not good enough too.

Still crying, Jepuskar?

Just out of curiosity, do you have any intention of actually responding to the questions posed earlier or are you still having comprehension issues.

As for diving with me, don't worry. I presume that you are still diving on SASY, so we'll pick something appropriate for you.
 
Would it have made a difference if it would have been an open boat instead of a club charter? I know the standards are somewhat different between a common carrier and a private carrier, but I am not a lawyer...nor do I dive on SASY. :D
 

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