Boat Crew Setting Up Gear?

[Walter]

That said if you're a qualified diver and don't want a guide, unless there's an underlying safety issue and the dive operation are not prepared for that reason to allow divers into an area unacompanied, then you should be entitled to dive unaccompanied if you so wish

Why "unless there's an underlying safety issue and the dive operation are not prepared for that reason to allow divers into an area unacompanied"?

If the area isn't safe, it isn't safe. If I'm not qualified to dive it without a guide, I'm not qualified to dive it with a guide. I would agree if you'd amend your statement to read:

That said if you're a qualified diver and don't want a guide, then you should be entitled to dive unaccompanied if you so wish

 

[diverbrian]

What's that got to do with nine months of "indentured servitude?" You didn't have to do that.

Simple, if you want the cert and to be good at it, you do what you are told in training and you are ready when the guy who signs the paperwork says you are ready, not before.

By "not squared away," I meant the divemaster. Obviously he/she was clueless - which mirrors my experiences with them in general, and is the reason for my frustration with them. Not all people agree on diving solo on a wreck up here. Many of the old time operators have done it for years themselves. And one thing that I don't do as a DM is touch someone's gear unless they call me over because there is a gas leak or something and they want a second set of eyes.


See, that's *not* "squared away." ...And to think that this person's been placed in charge of the safety of the dive! This person definitely did not need to be touching anyone else's gear.

That's what I mean... Breaka da fingers.

Experienced CAVE DIVER. This is a person with a whole heck of a lot more training than I have and a better diver. Let me know when you start cave diving. I would never call a cave diver clueless. Some may be a little arrogant, but almost never clueless and nearly always squared away in their own diving. By the same token, she did might have guided my buddy but realistically at a wreck with a max depth of 75 ft. with no penetration allowed, there weren't too many places for me to get into trouble. Also, breaking off from the two turned into my decision as much as hers as she was giving direction to my dive buddy and three in this case was turning into a crowd. I could have just as easily stayed with them (which I basically did just not in what I would call as a good position to get help if I needed it), but I have dove that particular wreck and wanted certain photos. I needed time to frame those photos and I couldn't do that on a "whirlwind wreck tour".

Yeah, but you're the customer. You've decided at this point to take your money elsewhere, so he loses, plain and simple.

Yep, and the good police sergeant will still make a living (You think that he makes it as a charter operator, LOL?). So, I wouldn't say that he loses. I just prefer the boat and operator next door.

I mentioned nothing about AIs or DiveCons... And it's been my experiences with DMs that have brought me to the conclusions that I have about them in general. My bottom line is that I do not want someone else telling me how to dive - and you can rest assured that I'm not going to pay for the "service." That's why I took classes to learn how to dive.

Why isn't it? What's wrong with the dive industry?

In my paralance a DiveCon IS a divemaster. The fact of the matter is that not all agencies separate out the ratings. Maybe this is another reason why it took nine months of getting bumped onto a shift (I normally work afternoons and had to work midnights during this timeframe) that had me ready to fall asleep on the drive home. I had to get time working with classes and the LDS owner has to be sure that none of the DiveCon's that he trains will give him a bad reputation. He notoriously slow on certifying DiveCon's and Instructors for that reason. He wants to be sure that the job was done right. In the meantime, for the most part, if you want the certification, you do what the LDS owner wants ("paint up... down....", "sand a floor circles....", I don't mean those literally but if you know where I got them from you will get the idea).

The industry isn't perfect. It never will be. Anyplace where money changes hands, someone's greed will taint it. Actually, I am upset with enough of it that I wish to stay more on the peripherals of it. Good instructors tend to see so much work that "burn-out" is a legimate threat. As one person pointed out, many places don't do the internship route to divemaster and they produce many poor divemasters.

Yes, but I don't think that the solution to that problem is to place someone else in charge of them. If they need work, then they need to work - plain and simple. The whole thing reeks of the whole big societal problem that I see every day elsewhere in the world - the complete lack of accountability, responsibility, and a total confusion about liability.

With the exception of dives sold through a shop, I don't see a lot of boats in the Great Lakes with in-the-water (or even out-of-the-water) divemasters for the reasons that you mention. But sometimes the best that you can settle for is the lesser of two evils. Some of the people that I have been in the water have been disasters at the start of a trip and pretty darn good when the trip is over . The end of the trip is then a good feeling all of the way around. It is nice when you can play a part in that as well. So there is a positive ending to my post after all.

Oh, and I was one of the people that brought up the use for a good dive guide in a new area. It is many times the way to get the most "bang for my buck" when only doing one or two dives on a tropical site and moving on. But I posted about that earlier .

 

[Walter]

Experienced CAVE DIVER.

Then I'd expect her to be qualified as a cave diver. Cave divers are not necessarily qualified to dive wrecks. I believe you said you were diving wrecks. I once had a cave instructor nearly kill himself because he screwed up in a wreck. I learned a valuable lesson that day. Qualification in one area does not qualify you in another.

 

[SeaJay]

Bloody hell! we agree on something! :11:

Yep far too many bad divers in the water in most places, however even the best divers often want and benefit from a dive guide on a site they haven't been to before.

That said if you're a qualified diver and don't want a guide, unless there's an underlying safety issue and the dive operation are not prepared for that reason to allow divers into an area unacompanied, then you should be entitled to dive unaccompanied if you so wish

Bloody hell, we agree on TWO things!

Er, wait... What Walter said.

I believe in the matter of choice. I respect others' desire to dive with a "guide," or "supervisor" or "helper" or "lackey" or however you want to define a DM - but I also believe I should have the right to choose to dive with my own chosen team... And not be "hawked."

Conversely, I do see the point that y'all are making... Some divers may not even know that they don't know what they're doing, which could put the whole dive operation (DM, captain, shop) at a liability risk - so they need to take some responsibility for safe operations.

...But the problem of addressing it by making others liable is providing a solution that's disconnected from the problem. Thus, new problems arise from this solution - like ticking off the guys that want to be left alone and actually do know what they're doing.

I have seen clueless divers with lots of experience, and I have seen clueless divers with lots of education. I have even seen clueless divers with both - so it's not like a DM or captain can simply look at someone and think, "This one's okay," or "That one needs supervision." So... What other solution can be offered?

Isn't there some way to make everyone happy and safe, simultaneously? I would think it would start with high standards of education in the scuba industry - mixed well with every individual taking responsibility for their own dives.

Pipe dream?

 

[DORSETBOY]

Bloody hell, we agree on TWO things!

need to be careful or we might start a trend!

 

[DORSETBOY]

Then I'd expect her to be qualified as a cave diver. Cave divers are not necessarily qualified to dive wrecks. I believe you said you were diving wrecks. I once had a cave instructor nearly kill himself because he screwed up in a wreck. I learned a valuable lesson that day. Qualification in one area does not qualify you in another.

agreed, but as a generalisation, and we're talking big generalisation here, a cave diver will tend to have a far higher technical appreciation of all diving matters than your bog standard recreational diver (with which i would inc myself). It's academic though as neither Walter nor myself knows much about the diver other than what we've read in the post.

 

[justleesa]

When we get ready for the dive we only set up the rented gear. If you bring your own, you do it yourself. As for getting in the water, we do give a lot of assistance (where needed).

 

[diverbrian]

agreed, but as a generalisation, and we're talking big generalisation here, a cave diver will tend to have a far higher technical appreciation of all diving matters than your bog standard recreational diver (with which i would inc myself). It's academic though as neither Walter nor myself knows much about the diver other than what we've read in the post.

She was also an exceedingly qualified wreck diver. I got the impression that like many wreck divers up here, she initially took cave to better learn how to do the line work for wreck penetration (as for a long time cavern/cave was about the only way to learn how to use lines from an instructor. Now many agencies have wreck penetration courses, but they don't still don't tend to be as involved as a good cave course.).

None of that really mattered because none of us were going inside that wreck anyways. It is turtled and the boat captains have "closed" it to penetration due to places starting to collapse in. Someone could get inside of that wreck and not be able to find a way out very easily through little fault of their own except that they went inside in the first place. I was simply using the cave certification make a point that this was not some "dive bum divemaster", but someone who probably has been diving for many years and did not learn how to do it out of the "Crackjack box". I was trying to say that clueless was not the proper term.

SeaJay, I am glad that you see the point. When liability is at issue, an operation has to do what it has to do to protect itself. As far as diving with people who don't know that they don't know. I have been there and done that as well. Those people are the largest issues that I see. I also see divers that can do the skills handily, but don't have the attitude for safe diving. You just know that the first thing that they will try to do out of their open water course is something beyond their skill.

I have only been "hawked" that one time, but it was annoying enough to be memorable. If I want to follow the DM, I will. If not, I won't. I really don't want there to be a debate on the boat about that, LOL. My gear is my gear. I will set it up and I won't set up anyone else's unless it is a deal like UP talked about earlier. That is the bottom line. Most operators respect that. The ones that do not will not get my repeat business. But, I will not tell a captain or his crew how to do their business unless I see something that puts me or my dive buddies in immediate danger unless some intervention (like the words "Look out for that sho.....!" or "My, what pretty whitecpaps!" LOL) is taken.

 

[Scubaguy62]

I wasn't about to read through 16 pages, so I skipped a lot. Anyway, if I'm unfamiliar with the area, and having a DM, AI, or instructor act as a dive guide allows me to enjoy the dive more, then by all means, let's do it; in esence, that's really the job of the dive guide. The problem is that many dive guides at places like Coz (in my own experience), believe that they're there to tell you how to dive, so if you don't say something beforehand and you jump in expecting to dive your own profile, they'll go crazy with their tank bangers.

As far as someone else setting up my gear, I flew corporate jets for 4 yrs and in that time I never had a close call, or a problem because a ground crew fueled my plane, or set up the external APU, or because my FO, not me, did the walk around. Worse case scenario, I could have always double checked things, and I did several times. IMHO, my dive gear is no different. Having someone setting up your gear, while on vacation, is a matter of preference and self confidence. I'm a safe and competent diver, thus, I see no difference between checking up my gear when I set it and when someone else sets it up for me. I can catch mistakes just as easy either way. Just because I'm on vacation does not mean my skills are relaxed, or I'm trusting someone else with my safety. Besides I set up my gear everytime I dive locally. Worse case scenario, I can politely ask them to let me set it up, if I feel it's necessary, or ask them to limit their set up to just one, or two items.

 

[SeaJay]

SeaJay, I am glad that you see the point.

That's not new... I saw the point before this thread started. I don't have another opinion than I did in the beginning. Maybe I just said it nicer this time.

When liability is at issue, an operation has to do what it has to do to protect itself. As far as diving with people who don't know that they don't know. I have been there and done that as well. Those people are the largest issues that I see. I also see divers that can do the skills handily, but don't have the attitude for safe diving. You just know that the first thing that they will try to do out of their open water course is something beyond their skill.

I have seen those kinds of divers, too... But to they're easy to identify and thus can be avoided. It's the ones that don't know that they don't know - "double ignorant" people - that are the most dangerous to me. You could talk with them all day long, and never know that the moment they submerge, they're going to practice dive methods specifically opposite of what they were taught.

I don't know of any agency that teaches anything other than "plan the dive, dive the plan." I don't know of any agency that recommends anything BUT the standard way of weighting yourself (although some agencies find that point differently). I don't know of any agency that teaches anything BUT good bouyancy skills, gear familiararity, intimate understanding of dive tables, proper (and conservative) ascent rates, and good buddy skills (SSI does teach a "solo diver" course, but that's a specialty, not what they preach throughout the rest of their material).

Yet, I consistently see people who do not have a dive plan past "go down, swim around, come up," have absolutely no control over their bouyancy, have never worked a table in their lives, and have no idea what goes where in terms of gear. They demonstrate these things, too, but when push comes to shove and they pay to get on the boat, a well-meaning DM will "help" them and put them in the water "under close supervision." To me, that's a "trust me dive," and is wholly inappropriate in a place where it's not difficult to get yourself killed.

...Which is why I see so many DMs as part of the problem, not part of the solution. Instructors (competent ones) are a part of the solution - what I've seen in terms of DMs is largely a reinforcement of inadequate learning.

...Which doesn't bother me one bit until a DM with 50 dives fondles my valve while asking me, "Why is your hose so long?"

If you don't know, then you shouldn't be the one in charge of checking my gear. It's not that I can't do it myself - 'cause I can - it's that I don't want to make the mistake of trusting your judgement when you say, "You look good - get in the water - be back on the boat with 500 psi." (See http://www.DeepSouthDivers.org/homerockbottom.html )

I am a practicing rescue diver - that is, I volunteer for an agency that rescues others. Recently, we did a search for a downed diver who drowned - probably due to his consistent practice of doing something *other* than what's taught in any of the PADI books, NAUI books, or any other agency's books. Let me tell you first hand how much it sucks to be looking for another diver's body - especially when it's someone you know.

Angry? Passionate? Rude? However you want to describe me - I don't care. I hate that someone loses their life, or even gets hurt.

Take responsibility for your own dive... Well, maybe that message is lost on you - you seem to do that already, based on what you're saying... But I know lots of people who simply use the "divemaster crutch" in place of comprehension.

And that's dangerous.

There has to be another way of doing this.