Boat Crew Setting Up Gear?

[Uncle Pug]

This must be a regional thing. Perhaps if I were feeling pressured to tip DMs I would see this a little differently. I don't often dive on charter boats since I have my own as do several of my dive buddies. The few times I've been on a charter here in the PNW the boat crew stayed on the boat during the dive and earned their tip by hauling our stuff to the boat and back (and making coffee.) In Fiji you don't tip and the DMs were fun to dive with. As it is stands I am amazed at the vitriol poured out by some of you indiscriminately on DMs in general.

 

[mempilot]

Most is in jest. What most don't see, is that schools in tropical climates crank out DM's at an alarming rate. I dated one of these 'candidates' and got to know her classmates quite well. I took the opportunity to dive with them on occasion throughout their training and all I can say is, WOW! Several didnt' pass. I guess they needed someone to set up their gear for them. Others that did pass did so by a thin margin. The top percent go back home to their communities to make a living. The remaining mass find employment on one of the hundreds of charter outfits down here. Even some of the LDS's that I use complain about the talent and knowledge, but have to hire someone. It's pathetic. I now dive off a few very well run boats with seasoned DM's. These DM's are worth what they get paid and then some. Most have other jobs and make more money than I. Come spend some time on the cattle boats and observe what a few of us are talking about and you'll change your mind about letting them touch your gear.

One school down here kicks out a new class of 15 DM's every other week. That's one school with cash flow on the brain. I call it the farm.

This must be a regional thing. Perhaps if I were feeling pressured to tip DMs I would see this a little differently. I don't often dive on charter boats since I have my own as do several of my dive buddies. The few times I've been on a charter here in the PNW the boat crew stayed on the boat during the dive and earned their tip by hauling our stuff to the boat and back (and making coffee.) In Fiji you don't tip and the DMs were fun to dive with. As it is stands I am amazed at the vitriol poured out by some of you indiscriminately on DMs in general.

 

[diverbrian]

Why did you go through "nine months of indentured servitude? That's not a requirement for DM. I don't have to do that for my DM cert.

There is a logical reason for this. I could get all of the pool time in the world. For some reason, we couldn't get enough people to do their Scuba II (actual OW check-outs) up here for DiveCon Canditates to get their practicals done. Everybody wanted referrals to dive in warm water.

Here's the plan: Stop giving your time away for free. Work an extra 5 hours per week, and you'll be able to afford a boat of your own.

...Or you can charter, and do it with a captain that understands that you want to be left alone to make your dive.

Not always the most feasible option. Buying the boat doesn't pay for the maintenance and slip fees. Nor does it pay for the vehicle to tow it. As to the charters, most are not cattle boats up here, they are six packs. Cattle boats are difficult to fill in cold water. Believe it or not, sometimes I do actually enjoy working with newer divers. I just want to know ahead of time instead of being drafted at the scene. I don't do many of our shop charters for the reason that if I am not there, I don't need to worry about shop regulations or that situation, LOL.

Simple solution: Don't dive with those groups.

Again, if it is a Captain's charter, I dive with who paid. "Buying the boat" last year set me back quite a bit when people didn't show at the last minute, but that is certainly preferred. You are correct on that when I have a choice, I prefer the second option over the first.

Yikes.

See why NOT having a DM would be safer? See why you don't dive on cattle boats? Why would you want to risk your dive - and your life, even - because someone else wasn't "squared away?"



Yeah - pffftttt - 'guess you won't be doing that again, hunh?

The guy WAS VERY squared away. That is what was so annoying. The divemaster just didn't seem to believe it and I was in full doubles (my normal rig). She assumed that I didn't need a dive buddy, I guess. Her dive skills were excellent as was her knowledge of the wrecks. She has been this captain's DM for a good number of years.

I have solo dove before and many Captains up here don't have a problem with that. Neither did this one. He was simply still in cop mode and was more interested in making sure that no bodies would be recovered by his dive team that he told us where we were allowed to go, how far up the wreck, what our bottom time would be, etc. It wasn't dangerous as much as annoying as it was well inside of anyone's limits. As I said, this boat captain is one of the best divers up here and has discovered nearly every wreck in that preserve. That is why I would still recommend him even though he and I did not hit it off completely. Many times, that is as much my attitude as his. The second day when our dives were severely limited it was due to an impending weather front. I have since seen captains that simply did one dive and came in when that happened (and refunded the second dive) rather than insist on limiting the dives that are done. He was visibly nervous about the incoming weather.

Well, there ya go.



Like that's an excuse... So what if it was a "personality conflict?" You won't put up with it when a waitress has a "personality conflict" with you, and you won't put up with it when a taxi driver has a "personality conflict" with you - why would you put up with it with any other service that you've paid for?

From my Navy days, a CAPTAIN is in complete control of (and has responsibility for) what happens on his boat. Read the statement about a submarine captain being the closest thing to an absolute dictator in the country, LOL. The reputation of this guy is immaculate. He was concerned for our safety. He just thought he was still at the station in charge of his dive team. For new divers or divers new to the area, he would be great. For divers that want to extend their range a bit off of his boat, well....

Again, in cases like this, it takes two people to rub each other the wrong way. I know a charter operator next door that I normally use anyways. If not for the group that invited me, I would not have used him.


Bottom line is that I did not appreciate someone that sounded like they were trying to paint all DM's/AI's/DiveCon's with the same brush. Many of us worked hard to get that certification and it wasn't to get coffee (even though I am more than willing to do that too ). Most of my actual DiveCon work is actually done in the pool, as you might believe. I take the load off for refreshers that full instructors really don't have time to teach and to catch divers that may have trained elsewhere (and not in a better program) up on their skills. As Walter stated, if the dive industry was perfect, all that we would need is instructors and junior instructors. That is not the case. You and I have both seen divers that could use some work. Those professional ratings provide people to do it that don't need to collect the same pay as an instructor and (most of the time) enjoy it. I carry liability insurance, same as the instructors (although the cost is less due to the fact that I don't sign C-Card's). This also gives people a peek in the realm of being a dive professional without having to fully commit to the industry as an instructor. Many of the better instructors spent a fair amount of time as DM's. I don't think that this is a coincidence either.

Maybe, I'll see you around!

Be safe,

 

[Walter]

"Buying the boat" last year set me back quite a bit when people didn't show at the last minute, but that is certainly preferred.

When I charter an entire boat, I have a deadline after which I have to come up with the $. Before that time I can cancel. I set a deadline at least a week prior for my folks to physically give me their share. If they don't give me the money on time, I drop back to plan B and go on a per head basis rather than the entire boat option. If they drop out after the deadline, there is no refund. They can sell their slot and recover their $ and I'll try to sell their spot, but I never set myself up to lose money on these deals. You shouldn't either.

 

[SeaJay]

Of course, there's nothing wrong with Seajay that a few dives, beers, sex and a Toyota Celica couldn't fix

<snicker> LOL!!!

That was a tough thread to find. SeaJay traded a BMW Z3 for a Ford F-150???

Yes. Not just any Ford F-150, either, but a long wheelbase, four door F-150 with the big motor, tow package, and all the appointments inside of this leather-clad beast. It's been five months now, and I'm more in love with this machine now than I was when I got it.

Why? Was it he was mistaken for Pierce Brosnan too many times? Too many trips to the shop for new head gaskets?

LOL... Let's just put it this way... I'll never own another BMW. Parts were much less than I expected - no more expensive than those needed for any domestic automobile - it's just that the little car needed so many of them. I could tell you long stories about convertible tops falling apart, door panels dropping off, paint peeling off (which got repainted BY BMW and proceeded to peel again - all within three years of ownership), tires replaced every 20k miles, "check engine" lights, leather interiors splitting, airbag warning lights that stay on, stereos that don't work right (and still don't work right even after they're replaced), interior parts made of flimsy, cheap materials... $100 oil changes... The works. And I only had the car for three years.

It sure was fun for a couple of months - you know, driving fast, enjoying the "sportiness" of it... THAT feeling wore off in a matter of like 90 days. From there, I was simply left with a very needy little German redhead.

...So I traded her in on something that made more sense as a diver. I'd longed for something that would tow a boat, since my participation in my local water search and rescue unit had increased significantly... And it seemed that every time I hit the dive site, I was wanting a big, wide bed to put wet, nasty, salty gear. A truck was definitely in order.

...I couldn't be happier. She's rock solid, tows even larger boats without complaining, and I've got miles of leather inside, along with a big stereo, GPS navigation, radar detection, and fully automated climate control. I put some Husky liners in, and now she stays clean, too, even when I get in with nasty, salty feet.

Yeah, this machine is totally the way to go. Five months in, and my only expense, aside from fuel, has been the once-a-week car wash (just run it through the local touchless machine - try that in a convertible BMW), two oil changes ($15.95 at the local Ford dealership, and if you buy one, you get the second free), and an air filter (it was dirty when I bought the truck - I bought it with 36k miles).

Well, that's not entirely true... I did buy four new tires for it - the owner before me apparently worked in construction or something, and they were full of patches and holes and one tire seperated, so I just replaced them... But the four tires cost me nearly half what they did on the BMW... And they included free installation.

...Not that the Ford is cheap to drive or own, mind you... But it's cheaper than the BMW by far, is built a whole lot better than the BMW (surprise!), makes a whole lot more practical sense, and is 100 times more luxurious. The BMW didn't do well trying to tow or carry gear, either.

...Anyway, Pierce Brosnan? Lol... Nope. He's a little skinny girlie-man. I don't think that anyone will be mistaking me for him anytime soon.

 

[SeaJay]

Because it is politically incorrect to tell a DM anything. Didn't you know, they learned everything in their class.

In SE FL, I hear there is legislation to protect DM's by putting up safety signs on the intercoastal and around the inlets so experienced divers don't run them over. They supposedly migrate down to southern Florida during the spring, they feed, grow, mate, and then return to foreign waters in the fall. Unlike the manatees, it is normally considered ok to feed and tip them, but some divers don't do so. They feel it creates an unatural environment for the DM and they become reliant on these feeders to survive.

Hahahahahaaaa!!! Freakin' hilarious post.

The few times I've been on a charter here in the PNW the boat crew stayed on the boat during the dive and earned their tip by hauling our stuff to the boat and back (and making coffee.)

Pfffttt! (Spits coffee all over keyboard.) Hahahahahaaa!!!

 

[SeaJay]

There is a logical reason for this. I could get all of the pool time in the world. For some reason, we couldn't get enough people to do their Scuba II (actual OW check-outs) up here for DiveCon Canditates to get their practicals done. Everybody wanted referrals to dive in warm water.

What's that got to do with nine months of "indentured servitude?" You didn't have to do that.

Not always the most feasible option. Buying the boat doesn't pay for the maintenance and slip fees.

"Maintenance and slip fees?" You don't have to buy the Titanic, you know... A little jonboat with a 2-stroke outboard gets you diving. Heck, many people I know dive from a kayak. There's no "slip fees" on a boat that you trailer, and maintenance is minimal if you keep it running.

Nor does it pay for the vehicle to tow it.

C'mon... If your regular car can't tow your boat, then buy a beater pickup truck. Like I said, five extra hours a week at work gets you an additional $200 a month, even if you're in the lower income brackets in the U.S. $200 a month would buy you a nice, used jonboat with a trailer easily. You'd also have enough left over to buy a couple thousand dollar pickup - and when you decide to upgrade or move on or whatever, you've got something to sell, too. You can't do that with the time you've spent volunteering at your local dive shop.

Again, if it is a Captain's charter, I dive with who paid. "Buying the boat" last year set me back quite a bit when people didn't show at the last minute, but that is certainly preferred.

Get rid of the other divers. Tell the Captain to take a flyin' leap. Get your own boat - problem solved. It doesn't take a lot of money.

The guy WAS VERY squared away. That is what was so annoying. The divemaster just didn't seem to believe it and I was in full doubles (my normal rig).

By "not squared away," I meant the divemaster. Obviously he/she was clueless - which mirrors my experiences with them in general, and is the reason for my frustration with them.

She (the divemaster) assumed that I didn't need a dive buddy, I guess.

See, that's *not* "squared away." ...And to think that this person's been placed in charge of the safety of the dive! This person definitely did not need to be touching anyone else's gear.

That's what I mean... Breaka da fingers.

Her dive skills were excellent as was her knowledge of the wrecks. She has been this captain's DM for a good number of years.

It don' matter.

I have solo dove before and many Captains up here don't have a problem with that. Neither did this one. He was simply still in cop mode and was more interested in making sure that no bodies would be recovered by his dive team that he told us where we were allowed to go, how far up the wreck, what our bottom time would be, etc. It wasn't dangerous as much as annoying as it was well inside of anyone's limits.

You don't consider solo wreck diving dangerous?

As I said, this boat captain is one of the best divers up here and has discovered nearly every wreck in that preserve.

...Then he should know better than to solo wreck dive.

That is why I would still recommend him even though he and I did not hit it off completely. Many times, that is as much my attitude as his.

Yeah, but you're the customer. You've decided at this point to take your money elsewhere, so he loses, plain and simple.

Bottom line is that I did not appreciate someone that sounded like they were trying to paint all DM's/AI's/DiveCon's with the same brush.

I mentioned nothing about AIs or DiveCons... And it's been my experiences with DMs that have brought me to the conclusions that I have about them in general. My bottom line is that I do not want someone else telling me how to dive - and you can rest assured that I'm not going to pay for the "service." That's why I took classes to learn how to dive.

As Walter stated, if the dive industry was perfect, all that we would need is instructors and junior instructors. That is not the case.

Why isn't it? What's wrong with the dive industry?

You and I have both seen divers that could use some work.

Yes, but I don't think that the solution to that problem is to place someone else in charge of them. If they need work, then they need to work - plain and simple. The whole thing reeks of the whole big societal problem that I see every day elsewhere in the world - the complete lack of accountability, responsibility, and a total confusion about liability.

 

[Walter]

Why isn't it? What's wrong with the dive industry?

If you think people jumped on you for being rude after what you said about DMs, wait till you see the reaction if I answer that question.

 

[SeaJay]

LOL

Maybe that's the problem... It's not really the DMs' fault... It's the industry as a whole - we're just seeing them follow suit.

 

[DORSETBOY]

Yes, but I don't think that the solution to that problem is to place someone else in charge of them. If they need work, then they need to work - plain and simple. The whole thing reeks of the whole big societal problem that I see every day elsewhere in the world - the complete lack of accountability, responsibility, and a total confusion about liability.

Bloody hell! we agree on something! :11:

Yep far too many bad divers in the water in most places, however even the best divers often want and benefit from a dive guide on a site they haven't been to before.

That said if you're a qualified diver and don't want a guide, unless there's an underlying safety issue and the dive operation are not prepared for that reason to allow divers into an area unacompanied, then you should be entitled to dive unaccompanied if you so wish