Blue Hole Hit

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Dragon2115:
Sorry if you think this might be rude but the impression I keep getting from your posts is that you do indeed feel that dive ops should be obligated to protect people from themselves. And I have to thoroughly disagree with that. Anybody that was trained properly (and was paying attention in class) learned what the recommended limits for each certification level are and what the risks for exceeding them are. If a person decides to exceed those limits then it is their own choice (as it should be) and the consequences are their own responsibility (also as it should be). The only reason U.S. dive ops would deny a diver anything is because of the liability risk that could finacially ruin them when the next of kin decides it's time to cash in on their relatives misfortune. Thank god the rest of the world doesn't operate with this same mindset or just like here in the U.S. we'd be having to provide DNA samples and drug test results just to ride a friggin go-kart there as well.

Consider this for a moment. What do you think the responsibility should be for dive ops in Bonaire that offer unlimited shore diving packages? After all, they're providing you with the vehicle to get to the dive sites, the tanks to dive with (i.e the method and the means), and requiring absolutely no supervision what so ever. Basically they ask for your c-card when you first get there, go out for one shallow check-out dive, and then they turn you loose to do whatever you feel like doing. There is nothing to stop an OW diver with five dives from going to 140 fsw if they wanted to. The Hilma Hooker is a wreck that can be reached right from shore and there's nothing to stop an unqualified diver from attempting to penetrate the wreck. Should the dive op be held responsible should someone get bent or die there? If your answer is that it's the divers responsibility, then why shouldn't that apply elsewhere in the world?

The basic problem I see is that the mindset in the U.S. (due to safety nut nerf-worlders) has gone from one of fierce independence and personal responsibility, to one of, I'm too stupid to think for myself so someone else has to do it for me. And if I do make a mistake and get hurt, it's someone else's fault and they should have to pay for my mistake.

In my training it was stressed that we were independant divers and that we were responsible for thinking for ourselves and making our own decisions. Remember the part about anybody being able to call the dive for any reason? If a person isn't ready to do that then imo they aren't ready to be an OW diver at all and should be held at the lower level scuba diver rating (and limited to diving with an instructor) until they can show proficiency and the ability to think for themselves.

Sorry if I seem a little strong on this topic but it's one of the things that gets me very torqued up these days. This country is in serious need of major Tort Law reform.

Thought for the day:

The human race is the only species on the planet in which the stupid not only survive, but thrive and reproduce in ever greater numbers.

In no way did I think your post was rude. You stated your opinion, which is valid. What you say has merit but it is a shade different than what I suggested. The dive op should "advise" a diver about a certain site that is CLEARLY beyound their expereience level, i.e. 130 ft dive after OW cert with a total of 5 or 10 dives as an example.

In your other example, which I think is different than touting a particular site and carrying divers out to that site, when you agree to shore dive you know full well you are on your own. If the shore dives you are attempting are all advance, deep sites, with strong current, then the Dive Op shoud advise you that it might not be a good idea for you to do those dives.

While I don't want agencies looking up my BC on every dive, I think Dive Ops should be in an advisary capacity, as they some times are, and not allow clearly unqualified diveres to do certain sites, which is the case with some reputable dive ops. Safe, fun diving, not dangerous diving.
 
I agree with Dragon2115 you seem to be hung up on the idea that the operator should be held liable.
That is one big problem in the US. No one wants to own up to there own mistakes. Always looking someone to blame and pay.
I’ve seen other threads you’ve started that talk about the same thing…the dive ops responsibility to you. I think it is time you take responsibility for your own actions.


pilot fish:
The dive op should "advise" a diver about a certain site that is CLEARLY beyound their expereience level, i.e. 130 ft dive after OW cert with a total of 5 or 10 dives as an example.
I disagree, I think the OW diver with 5 dives under his belt should know better than to do this dive. Do you see the shift in responability here. I place it on the diver who knows his experience level and should be looking out for his own butt, not hoping someone else is.
 
Hiya Pete,

I'm with you. Dive operators have a responsibilty to prevent accidents, however, I don't think they are under obligation to prevent personal stupidity. Just because you have an AOW and dove a couple of times, doesn't mean you can dive with people that have a lot of experience at depth.

I may be a wiener, but I try to stay with the 60ft limit on my OW. I'll dive to 100ft, when I get my deep certificate. I will have sufficient dives under my belt at depth before attempting the limit.

I'm not even sure I would have done that during my invincible years.... :eyebrow:

Jack

pete340:
I recently did an "advanced" dive charter in Hawaii. The requirement was AOW and have been diving within the past six months, or 20 dives and have been diving with that dive operator recently. The first dive was a gradual descent along the bottom, following a lava ridge. Several of us were diving Nitrox, so we went as a group and limited our depth to 110'. The rest were mostly dive instructors, so they went all the way to 130'. Back on the boat afterwards, one person from the other group (not a dive instructor) was telling her story about running out of air during her safety stop; she had run low at depth, buddied with the dive guide for the ascent, and shared air at the stop. She explained that she "must have been really narced" to not notice how fast she was using air. While she was filling out her logbook I came up with a better explanation: she had made seventeen dives. She had no business diving that deep.
 
While I don't want agencies looking up my BC on every dive, I think Dive Ops should be in an advisary capacity, as they some times are, and not allow clearly unqualified diveres to do certain sites, which is the case with some reputable dive ops. Safe, fun diving, not dangerous diving.

Ok, here's the problem, you used the word responsible, not advisory. That makes a huge difference. Yes, they should advise all divers about any possible hazards that may be encountered at the particular site they are going to dive. That can simply be handled by asking if the diver has ever been to the site before. If not then brief them right then and there. But the dive ops responsibility ends the second they sign the release stating that they were aware of the risks involved. Imo that makes the diver 100% responsible for anything that happens beyond that point, with the exception of things like deliberate unsafe operation of the dive boat etc.

As for log books and certs. Reviewing them may or may not be of use. In my particular case I am VERY at home in the water. I was doing fin pivots within 30 seconds during my OW class even though they had me seriously over weighted. I had no problem what so ever doing any of the skills. But that's because I had spent years in the water snorkeling as a kid, playing with neutral buoyancy, and doing crude free diving using rocks for ballast. Before I took the class I already knew how to control my depth using only my breath, how to remove and clear a mask, etc. But you wouldn't know that from my log book because I didn't have one.

Even now if you look at my log book you might question my level of competency in the water simply because of the number of logged dives I have. However, closer scrutiny will show that of my 23 logged dives, 15 have been to beyond 60 fsw with four of those beyond 100 fsw, two were night dives, two were drift dives, and 18 of them were Nitrox dives. Does this make me an "advanced" diver? Not hardly, even though I have a pretty broad spectrum of diving experiences I still have a very long way to go before I'd consider myself an advanced diver.

However, I do consider myself a fairly competent diver and here's an example why. During the first night dive that my wife and I planned and executed by ourselves we had an incident while taking photos at around 60 fsw. My wife accidently snagged my regulator hose and pulled it right out of my mouth. It wasn't her fault because we were trying to do something that required us to be very close to each other. At the time we were also in close proximity to the reef and I had both hands full with my main light and the camera. When the reg came free she got a face full of bubbles when it free flowed which startled her and completely wiped out her vision for a couple of seconds. There are a lot of people out there that would have freaked out in this situation and probably ended up doing something stupid as a result. We otoh didn't contact the reef in any way or even change depth. We simply resolved the situation and went on about the dive. That's where paying attention to your training pays off. But our logbooks don't reflect that so unless we told you you would never know. My point is that there is only one way you are ever going to actually find that out for sure how competent a diver is in the water and that's to dive with them, or to talk to someone that have dove with them. That's the problem for dive ops in deciding who should and who shouldn't be allowed on a particular dive because logbooks can be dummied up to say whatever someone wants them to say. A diver can have a logbook showing hundreds of dives when in reality they only have a handful. That means that a dive op really has no way of knowing for sure, before they hit the water, if a diver has told them the truth about their abilities or not. And that's why I feel that a dive op can't really be held responsible for a diver getting in over their head, so to speak.

As for the dive ops playing an advisory roll. That would be nice but there is an old proverb that says 'let the buyer beware'. The dive op is out to sell you a dive trip. But it's up to the diver to ask the right questions first though. They and they alone must make the decision if they are comfortable with going ahead with the dive. This is where being an independent diver comes into play. If someone isn't capable of asking the right questions and making their own decisions then maybe we should be questioning whether or not they should be certified divers in the first place.

As for telling a new diver that they can do a dive that is beyond their training, that's fine, as long as the operator is willing to have a DM or instructor there to closely monitor them and be ready to lend assistance if it's needed. But again, it ultimately comes down to the judgement of the diver as to whether they should go ahead with the dive or not and as to whether they should turn the dive or not. And once again, it all comes back to our training where we were all taught that anybody, for any reason, can end the dive.
 
jbliesath:
dragon2115

LOVE your tag-line!!! Too bad it's true....hehe

Thanks.

Yes, it's sad but all too true these days.

One of the biggest problems I see is that these ambulance chaser lawyers have convinced people that even if they are the dumbest person on the planet, if something happens to them that is clearly their own fault, that society or some company, or some other person, owes them something for their own stupidity.

This has got to end or there won't be anything fun left to do in this country anymore.
 
Btw, the other one I love is when people tell about how they bought their wives an SUV because she's a lousy driver and that she's now much safer driving her new tank.

Another thought of the day:

Wouldn't EVERYBODY be safer if they sent her for driving lessons (or take her off the road) instead of putting her on the road in vehicle that she will be more likely to kill anybody she runs into?

Yes, I'm a politically incorrect person and proud of it. :devil_2:
 
I find all this interesting because I am in the boat of OW -> AOW in 9 dives flat.
Why, its the course I took and that is that. Plus I get to do a great Wall dive, Wreck Dive, Navigation course, and two other great dives all under the direction and scrutiny of a very skilled 30+ year veteran/instructor of diving.

The one advantage of doing the Deep Dive as part of your AOW is that, in my case, you have an instructor right there teaching you the risks and the skills nessesary to do deep dives. In our case we have 5 instructors in the water with 15 people and we all do a 120 fsw wall dive.

Now I know what I need to know to dive that deep and as I progress I will develop more of the soft skills. But I do have the hard skills from the classwork and that initial guided dive.

I really would not want to see these types of limitations placed on diving because in my mind it ultimatly comes down to the diver themselves and taking responsibility for thier own lives and actions.

Heck, the law would not solve anything anyway. Any OW diver can rent a tank and go out and dive to 150 feet if they want. It happens all the time. Its not recommended but what are you suggesting? PADI BEACH COPS that read your guages as you emerge from the water and suspend your card if you are in violation? Maybe a transmitter on our DC that notifies PADI if the DC went into violation mode?

This is way to big brother for me. Diving should be fun and if someone is not comfortable diving they should not do a dive. They are adults in most cases. There could be arguments made if the diver is juvinile. I feel the risks should be explained and the responsibility taken on the diver at that point.
 
There is a bit of confusion as to what I mean by responsibilty/advice and persmission, or denial, for a particular dive. Let me try to be a bit clearer.

If I present myself to a Dive Op and say I want to dive Devil's Throat, let's say, I think the prudent thing to do is look at C card, log and give a brief description of what the dive entails. If that diver has over a 100 dives, is AOW and is current, then he does that dive at his or her own risk. If a diver arrives at the dive op with OW cert, two months of certification, and only 7 dives, none done below 70 ft, I think the diver op has an obligation to advise the diver against this dive. That diver might not be expereinced enough to even know what dives are really beyond their experience level.

Now, if a diver goes to that dive shop with fake log and C card, it is obvious that diver is defrauding the Dive Op and would be totally responsible for his own actions.

When I first dove the USS Spiegel Grove the dive op would not let me do that dive until I showed them my log that I had done a bunch of dives below 85 ft, I had about 40 dives below that depth then, some over 110ft and one to 138 ft. That was, I think, very responsible for them to require to see my log and advise me on that dive. A guy came in the shop after me, in his late teens early 20s, with no experience and was told he could not do the dive. That, to me, is a responsible Dive Op.

No one is attempting to transfer responsibility, but some things need to be addressed.
 
With all this talk of log books, who actually carries their log book into a shop or onto a boat and shows it to the owner/captain??

I've never been asked for my log book.
 
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