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BHB collection/protection discussion

Discussion in 'Florida' started by dumpsterDiver, Apr 13, 2011.

  1. guyharrisonphoto

    guyharrisonphoto ScubaBoard Supporter ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Florida, USA
    1,992
    1,058
    I have no problems with people who follow the law, but I don't think it is unreasonable for me to try to persuade people to act with self-restraint in a special spot. I do plan to work for official protections in this area, but that does not mean others (whether at my asking or just out of their own consideration) might not also help preserve this place, merely by deciding to not take the life out of here.

    You might ignore me and it is your right to have "legal" be your only guide. However, understanding that some things might be more valuable than someone's own (and I include myself) temporary urge to "legally" take and kill, can also be part of human relations, if you want it to be.

    As an example, I drool over a tasty lobster as much as the next person, but I will not take lobsters from BHB. Under any circumstances, taking lobsters, a game species, is and has been unquestionably legal. But, I realized that I can take pleasure in just seeing them (they are actually very colorful and beautiful at night), and that many other divers do appreciate them for just that. I also know that grabbing and chasing after them will silt up the place and probably ruin the experience and the area for other divers, especially if my acts are multiplied by others doing the same.

    I can adopt a more generous view. I can appreciate that my actions might ruin or degrade the experience of other divers. I can appreciate that some places are just worth being there, for their own sake, without greed or desire requiring me to possess them.

    Can anyone else? The decision is yours.
     
  2. Ana

    Ana Solo Diver

    # of Dives: I just don't log dives
    Location: Pompano Beach, FL
    1,756
    2,016
    ok so maybe unreasonable was a poor choice of word, not quite delusional either but probably closer to it.

    The truth is that regardless your best intentions just asking pretty please, giving a nasty look or even swimming by the collector disturbing the catch are useless tactics. Do all the virtual chest thumping on an internet forum that you want and it may make you feel like you are accomplishing something but reality is darker.

    I thank you for finding and publishing the truth about the legalities on the issue, it won't modify my behavior because my visit to the site never involve collecting anything but again, I can't help to see the banality of the "strongly discouraging" any acts unless it is between a parent and a child.

    Let's be objective about it. What is the broad profile of a collector that happens to be a diver? I know that each time I've been asked why don't I have a tank my answer is I already have the Atlantic Ocean, that is my tank. I don't claim to be generous or green or none of that, just like to see things where they belong (according to my definitions) I happen to have a pool in my backyard but only because the house that had all the things I wanted came with a pool, otherwise just like with a fish tank I think the best pool in the planet is the Atlantic Ocean.
    So continuing with the broad profile of a collector... this person wants to have a "private" access to the creatures inside the tank, he/she takes pleasure in "owning" them, probably takes pride in showing it to friends and family.

    The more I think about it the less I see an individual that will even realize that by collecting on this particular site is disrupting so many. And the chances of any of you catching this individual in the act of collecting to do whatever it is you have in mind, is not very high. All these energy should be directed to stalk government officials and bug them until the law is changed.
    How hard can it be to make collection on this area off limits?
     
  3. dumpsterDiver

    dumpsterDiver Banned

    # of Dives: 2,500 - 4,999
    Location:
    9,003
    4,674
    Thanks Guy for confirming what I have been saying for 6 months or so. :shakehead:
     
  4. Doug Charney

    Doug Charney Contributor

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Depends on what day you ask...
    287
    56
    And what I've been saying for months is it doesn't matter whether it's legal or not, you shouldn't do it. Why is it so hard for you to leave this ONE place alone??? :shakehead:
     
  5. Teljkon

    Teljkon Contributor

    71
    5
    It matters alot if its legal or is not legal. I dont like every NY person over the age of 55 moving into my back yard driving up the price of every dam thing using 100's of acers of buitiful ( to me) scrub brush land to build condos and town homes. But its legal to do so I dont get up and arms about it tell them lies and throw them under the bus.

    All you dolts have done with all of this is prove your liers not worthy of the support in this cause. I am constantly reminded of the fact that our living traditions are threatend threw out the world. Pulling a living from the sea is some thing that Has been done in south florida before Florida was florida. Any action taken to stop that is a bad one to me. When I was told that Blue heron bridge is a special spot and shouldnt be collected at I was open to supporting that. Now seeing the willingness to lie and warp the truth violate other personal space and enjoyment even advocate violance to float this concept I dont think i could ever support it.

    I can only see you guys in the light of being eco nuts.

    I thank you guy for all the trouble you have gone threw. How ever I carry my doubts to its validity on the truth. So much under handedness and lieing has muddied the waters I would support even comercial collectors to investagate the laws and regulations around this site them selfs befor taking Guys results to heart.
     
    Ana likes this.
  6. guyharrisonphoto

    guyharrisonphoto ScubaBoard Supporter ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Florida, USA
    1,992
    1,058
    Before you suggest I held something back, why don't you read the ordinances for yourself? They are easily accessed through the County's web page. If you disgree with how I read them, then at least that would be an informed opinion.

    However, I stand by what I already posted.
     
  7. danvolker

    danvolker Dive Shop

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Lake Worth, Florida, United States
    5,884
    3,009
    The real question here, is "should you" do something, because it is LEGAL...the assumption being, that if it is legal, some huge amount of "thought" has gone in to it, and if it is still legal,"it must be a good thing to do" .....

    Point to address this....Commercial shark fishing just opened up on July 15th, there is a boat running in the Jupiter area of fllorida, now doing round the clock shark fishing...in one day a week ago, we heard they had taken 10 hammerheads and 2 tiger sharks, just in one outing....they bring the sharks in, cut off the fins, then dump the bodies of the sharks on the deep ledge( no good market for shark flesh with it's known high mercury count).
    1. The most compelling new understanding in biosciences right now, was addressed in an article that just came out about a week ago, entiltled "The Trophic Downgrading of Planet Earth". The key concepts are that the actual health of an ecosystem is often determined best by the health of the apex predators, and when the apex predators are destroyed, a snowballing ( or "cascading effect") occurs in the trophic systems below them....( trophic systems referring to all the predator and prey relationships in the entire ecosystem, from the top with the sharks, to the bottom with the herbivores and then the plants and planktons.
    2. It is being shown conclusively, that overfishing of sharks in New England, has caused the Cow nosed Ray populations to skyrocket ( sharks are supposed to eat the rays) and the rays have eaten all the bivalves they could find ( including all the cl;ams and oysters people like), to the extent that most sefood restaurnats in that area, can not serve clam chowder without importing it!!!
    3. The higher level predators, such as Groupers, Jewfish, and particularly sharks, in the "natural" population numbers, were so prevelant in the 50's and 60's, that had the "Lionfish Invasion" occured then, it would have never gone anywhere--it would have been a "non-event". The larger grouper and jewfish in the huge concentrations back then, were all competing for prey, and the sudden emergence of lionfish, which were eating their food, would have them shift their targets to the lionfish.....The Sharks, even more so, will vary their diet based on what is available, and in this case, act as essentially the "Sherriffs" of the reef, controlling the populations of any of the fish below them if they grow too large.
    4. Sharks DO eat Lionfish, but 90% of the sharks in the oceans have been slaughered for shark fin soup... We are experiencing multiple trophic collapses right now, imbalances which nature can not fix, because Man has destroyed the "control predators", the sharks, and we are allowing this to CONTINUE, as an ENTIRELY LEGAL activity. Scientists are now finding that shark fins contain a nasty and dangerous neurotoxin, that causes Alzeimers and worse, so some day the Chinese may decide it would be smarter not to eat it--regardless of culture----BUT.. The shark fisherman can LEGALLY slaugheter the primary tool nature created to keep the critical balances in the ocean in check.
    5. So....my point with this tangent, is that just because it is LEGAL to collect tropical species at the BHB, has nothing to do with how right, or how intelligent it is, or how ecologically destructive it could be.
    6. I would be happy to take Dumpster Diver or even Teljicon on a scooter run over to the mangroves and several other sites in the intracoastal where you would "expect" to see plenty of rich nursery ground marine life biomass.....In fact, you find only tiny amounts, if anything, at all the other places we have looked....[nudibranchs, frogfish, blennies, octopus, and basically most of the exciting life we see at the BHB. What the tour would do, is show that there is some big difference, in the general intracoastal, and the BHB. Maybe it's the structures, or the wAY THE CURRENTS HIT IT, OR maybe it is the beach and trophic relationships of this in an intracoastal environment.... We need some scientists to figure out the "WHY" here. But let me say this again-- I would be happy to show you guys--and let you tell the other collectors what you have seen.
     
  8. Teljkon

    Teljkon Contributor

    71
    5
    Dan For the final time I am not a collector nor do I care to be one any time soon. I have more hobbies to tend too than I need at this point. Secondly I dont care about anything but one point that you seem to feel no remourse for. You and everyone eles who is on the protection end of the BHB bridge discussion has lied in a attempt to protect it not to mention attack everyone that has squeeked a minor bit of disagrement. What part of you have no credability with me dont you understand.

    I agree shark fishing is a hindrence on our oceans and it needs to be stopped. But I see this in a frame work of a much larger picture of humans aproaching a over population of planet earth not that shark fishing is evile. Overpopulation means over consumption. With that said these are too completly diffrent conversations we are not going to see eye to eye on I dont think that collection at bhb is going to destroy it you do fine. But due to your methods of trying to protect it I could never support you in that effort.

    Good day dan and everyone eles who has pissed on the truth. Thank you Guy for your efforts my apologies that I cant consider it the final word I have to follow my instincts of trust but verifie. Being as I dont have any intention of going collecting at BHB any time soon I have no need to review the evidence presented at this time. If i ever do and i find it to be lacking I will post it on this thread.
     
  9. danvolker

    danvolker Dive Shop

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Lake Worth, Florida, United States
    5,884
    3,009
    As usual, you don't care about any "truth" but the one you think you have control of....

    I have no idea where you think the bHB regulars have been making up lies. There is still a sign that says "No collecting", and most people that will say collecting is not legal at the BHB, going from the sign which remains there--are not making up a lie...Maybe they are wrong not to have investigated more, but that IS what this thread was supposed to accomplish.

    So while I don't remember how many times DD has saidm this, or you, but I am pretty sure you are both on record as saying if collecting is LEGAL at the park, then it is fine to collect....My last posts on sharks, should prove that making choices by only considering whether somethiing is legal or not, is a poor way to go through life--and could easily help collapse many more ecosystems on the planet.

    My offer to get you guys on scooter runs in the intracoastal, was to satify your complete distrust of us, or of my reports about a massive difference existing between the BHB and all other areas of the Intracoastal you would expect to be rich nursery grounds. If you trust yourself, and don't think you would suddenly start lying to yourself if we were to show you the other sites in the intracoastal, then maybe this would help you with your current frustration regarding the TRUTH. :)
     
  10. dumpsterDiver

    dumpsterDiver Banned

    # of Dives: 2,500 - 4,999
    Location:
    9,003
    4,674

    Yes it is very clear now that several people were deliberately trying to disseminate mis-information in this thread. I was called a poacher and law breaker and worse, when in reality everything I have said about collecting (and even using a knife to take a flounder there) is perfectly legal.

    Most of the people in this thread are probably well intentioned, but were mislead about the legality of the situation.

    We can argue about the ethics of collecting or the gear type (hook and line) versus say a knife for taking some species, but legality of the situation is pretty clear.

    I wonder if the county has removed the signs which they have now repeatedly and publicly confirmed are inaccurate and misleading? It bothers me a little when a government agency posts signs in a public place which are know to be WRONG.
     

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