Best CCR in 2025-2030 Rebreather Markets

[Pavao]

No. That question was simply asking about CCR offered by big companies only because I believe this peice of data is important for me to know. If possible, I also would love to keep my knowledge about CCR offered by big companies up to date every year as the CCR market will keep changing.

I thought you said this…

i am searching for more options to help a family student who want to start instructor career in CCR training and doesn't want to consider any units rely on the mood and life conditions of single engineer or entrepreneur.

 

[Mas.]

I thought you said this…

Yes, that situation was actually what made me realize that I don't have any awareness about the CCR ecosystem and don't know anything about which big companies will offer CCR in following years.

But i don't understand what exactly is your question?

 

[Mas.]

No this has been tried over and over again to make a "mainstream appeal to the masses rebreather" and the market does not exist.

Maybe CSR is not the answer.

I hope a big company to address all these challenges for market adoption and try to do what Head Sports did when they decided to offer a Dräger Dolphin CCR by acquiring rEvo III of Mares.

I hope any big company like Johnson Outdoors/ Scubapro will offer the same Dräger CCR but for civilians. Or at least offer SF2, AP Inspiration, Poseidon Seven+, JJ-CCR or Halcyon Symbios.

 

[sea_ledford]

Head Sports did when they decided to offer a Dräger Dolphin CCR by acquiring rEvo III of Mares.

You have several inaccurate ideas in this sentence that you keep saying, it's not helping your cause, whatever that is.

Head never offered a Dolphin
The Dolphin was never a CCR
Drager has nothing to do with revo, Mares, Head or any recreational units at this point, they are a completely different company. It is also a WAY bigger company than Head (3.37 billion Euro for Draeger in 23 vs 3-400 million US for Head)
"rEvo III of Mares" may be technically correct, but just sounds wrong. The only Mares rebreather was the Horizion, which was the semi closed thing that was made at the same time the Hollis explorer was. Which was in that brief period when "recreational rebreathers" were going to be the future, PADI developed standards for type R (recreational) and type T (technical) rebreathers, and Poseidon put out the overly nanny-ing Mk VI to meet those Type R standards. All of them were flops because there wasn't a market for them. Poseidon wasn't really a flop, but they pretty quickly re-vamped it into the Se7en and gave up on the type R nonsense.

Semi closed systems will always be flops because they have all of the down sides of open circuit, all of the down sides of closed circuit and none of the benefits of either.

 

[rjack321]

Maybe CSR is not the answer.

I hope a big company to address all these challenges for market adoption and try to do what Head Sports did when they decided to offer a Dräger Dolphin CCR by acquiring rEvo III of Mares.

I hope any big company like Johnson Outdoors/ Scubapro will offer the same Dräger CCR but for civilians. Or at least offer SF2, AP Inspiration, Poseidon Seven+, JJ-CCR or Halcyon Symbios.

Johnson is barely holding onto their existing markets which extend far beyond SCUBA. The hiking and climbing universe is going the exact opposite of your hoped for scuba consolidation, there is a proliferation of small scale manufacturers.

Rebreathers will continue to be made by similar small scale 2-50 person sized companies in the indefinite future. Multiple large-scale scuba companies already tried to make rebreathers widespread and failed. Johnson Outdoors would be fools to think the market has changed since Drager, Mares, Kiss, and Hollis all failed at this. No amount of mass production or slick marketing by Johnson or anyone else could somehow sell even 500 units a year.

 

[Mas.]

You have several inaccurate ideas in this sentence that you keep saying, it's not helping your cause, whatever that is.

Head never offered a Dolphin
The Dolphin was never a CCR
Drager has nothing to do with revo, Mares, Head or any recreational units at this point, they are a completely different company. It is also a WAY bigger company than Head (3.37 billion Euro for Draeger in 23 vs 3-400 million US for Head)

It's just a simple question about big companies offering CCR. Why do you want to make it a cause.

I think it's a public knowledge that rEvo iii is the CCR version for the Dräger Dolphin CSR model that was offered by the totally separate Dräger company. Which part is inaccurate?

The Dräger company information and company size i mentioned in my original post are all from their statement also public knowledge. Which part is inaccurate?

 

[Wibble]

No. That question was simply asking about CCR offered by big companies only because I believe this peice of data is important for me to know. If possible, I also would love to keep my knowledge about CCR offered by big companies up to date every year as the CCR market will keep changing.

Actually the market changes very slowly. Mentioned a long way above is the European CE type approval process. Whilst this is a good thing to ensure high standards and good “work of breathing” and other requirements, the approval process is very expensive and you cannot change the design without getting it re-type approved — at great expense.

The CE approval will not allow many rebreathers because of type constraints.

Without CE approval you cannot legally sell the unit within the 27 EU countries (or the UK which allegedly left, but clung on to the rules). It is also illegal to get training on a non-type approved unit.

Bottom line; rebreathers that have passed CE will change very little during their lifetime, probably only being re-certified each new version iteration where a whole host of changes will be tested. Example being the Triton v2, the forthcoming SideWinder 2, etc.

There is an after-market for modifications which would put the unit outside of the CE approval. A good example is the GUE JJ (The JJJJ) with massive cylinders; this is not CE approved. Not sure how European JJJJ courses can run legally.


And finally; rebreathers have a long life provided you pick a common one. The advice is always to choose carefully, avoid being the early adopter and ensure it’s CE approved. Thus Revo, JJ, AP Inspiration, X-CCR, Triton, FX-CCR (now CE approved). All of those have sold lots of units and should be available for a long time hence.


You do need to ask questions about training and rebreather prerequisites.

I think it's a public knowledge that rEvo iii is the CCR version for the Dräger Dolphin CSR model that was offered by the totally separate Dräger company. Which part is inaccurate?

The Dräger company information and company size i mentioned in my original post are all from their statement also public knowledge. Which part is inaccurate?

The Revo only uses the Drager DSV (mouthpiece) and hose sizes. It influenced the Revo only in that breathing gas flows from right to left, as per Drager designs. Many other rebreathers (Inspo, JJ, etc.) flow left to right.

Other rebreathers use the Drager mouthpiece.

The rest of the Revo design is uniquely Paul Raemaekers work (the designer & company founder).

 

[Mas.]

Rebreathers will continue to be made by similar small scale 2-50 person sized companies in the indefinite future. Multiple large-scale scuba companies already tried to make rebreathers widespread and failed. Johnson Outdoors would be fools to think the market has changed since Drager, Mares, Kiss, and Hollis all failed at this. No amount of mass production or slick marketing by Johnson or anyone else could somehow sell even 500 units a year.

Maybe CSR is not popular yet. I don't know

But let's look at CCR which is more relevant to our discussion. Can you please name one big company who recently offered a CCR and failed?

Head Sports offered a Dräger Dolphin CCR by acquiring rEvo III of Mares. And I read they are doing very well post Head era. In Europe and other regions it is the almost the only unit sold to universities/ institutions/ scientists / studios / well funded agencies etc.

 

[Mas.]

The Revo only uses the Drager DSV (mouthpiece) and hose sizes. It influenced the Revo only in that breathing gas flows from right to left, as per Drager designs.

According to Ron Benson: "The rEvo rebreather is a Drager Dolphin/ Ray breathing loop with a unique scrubber that is split into two canisters, with a lid that allows gas to pass through. The direction of the gas flow, the counterlung size and shape, as well as loop hoses and loop hose connectors were all originally Drager rebreather parts or design.... The Drager DSV exemplifies the reason that ....."

Do you guys agree with him?

 

[Wibble]

I hope any big company like Johnson Outdoors/ Scubapro will offer the same Dräger CCR but for civilians. Or at least offer SF2, AP Inspiration, Poseidon Seven+, JJ-CCR or Halcyon Symbios.

Some of those mentioned would be on the “friends don’t let friends buy…” list.

The Halcyon will be very interesting as it has a lot of new features that are rather, errm, bold or courageous. Most rebreather divers want proven technology, not unproven new tech. (It has wireless comms, a very different bailout configuration, mixed cells, unproven/new computers, a novel scrubber…)

The SF2 has terrible work of breathing in certain orientations due to the bellows (counterlungs) being in the wrong place - nowhere near your lungs.

The Poseidon will leave you on the boat because it’s thrown a hissy fit. It has a proprietary computer that knows everything; you have to be a believer in it. Just no.

Revo, JJ or Inspo. All great units that have been tried and tested.