Best agency for learning Tech diving - criteria given - honest :)

[MXGratefulDiver]

is gue the right way to go if you want to dive solo or sidemount? no, but if you pass a tech 1 and tech 2 class you will be a very solid diver.

... and that's exactly why it wasn't right for me. I do both of those things ... in fact, this coming Saturday I'll be doing a solo dive to 150 feet using sidemount. GUE wouldn't prepare me for that dive. In fact, the only thing GUE training would do is tell me not to do it.

and i would challenge anyone to point to a t2/c2 instructor on the GUE list and tell me that guy isn't one of the best instructors in the world.

I guess I don't feel compelled to seek out the best instructors in the world ... if in fact they wouldn't be prepared to provide me the training I want to achieve my goals.

I'll "settle" for competent instruction from someone who will ... just seems more practical in the long run ...

and dont be offended by me referring to GUE weirdos. we all know those people. those valve turners are all over the world. not just out west

... I'm not the least bit offended ... there are plenty of weirdos in scuba diving ... I like to think I'm one of them ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[TSandM]

You know, a lot depends on what somebody wants to do. If you want to dive sidemount, don't look for a GUE class. If you are an open water diver who wants to become a technical diver but isn't set on a path to do that, taking your initial classes in backmounted doubles is not a bad idea. And just because you did that, you aren't locked forever into diving that way. I think one of the things DaleC realized from taking Fundies up in Canada in February, was that just because he took the class didn't mean he immediately had to sell all his vintage gear and lock himself into one way of doing things. I have seen a senior GUE instructor monkey diving in the Red Sea, and I have dived with JJ and watched him take his fins off and put them on his hands, just for fun.

One thing you WILL get with a GUE class, is an instructor who is required to recertify every few years, demonstrating both his personal diving skills and his ability to teach. You WILL get a predictable curriculum, and you can look to see what it is before you take the class. You WILL be held to high standards of performance, and you know what those are before you get there. And in the case of this particular person seeking instruction, not only the agency but a specific instructor (who has a stellar reputation with everybody) has been recommended.

As far as "Cove 2 warriors" goes . . . yeah, some people like GUE because they need a reason to dive, and practicing something gives them that. If you don't like marine life but you still want to do a Wednesday night shore dive, skills can be as good a reason as any. I don't understand that, because I love critters, but there's room in the water for all of us. And I do way too much C2 diving myself, simply because I don't have to worry about our rotten spring tides there, it's a short drive, there's easy parking, accessible restrooms, and a sheltered, easy entry. If you have one night (or day) a week to dive, setting all the variables in your favor can make a lot of sense. Or you can drive out to Hood Canal and try to get in and out of the water in a diving wind with breakers . . . right, Bob?

 

[LiteHedded]

You know, a lot depends on what somebody wants to do. If you want to dive sidemount, don't look for a GUE class. If you are an open water diver who wants to become a technical diver but isn't set on a path to do that, taking your initial classes in backmounted doubles is not a bad idea. And just because you did that, you aren't locked forever into diving that way. I think one of the things DaleC realized from taking Fundies up in Canada in February, was that just because he took the class didn't mean he immediately had to sell all his vintage gear and lock himself into one way of doing things. I have seen a senior GUE instructor monkey diving in the Red Sea, and I have dived with JJ and watched him take his fins off and put them on his hands, just for fun.

One thing you WILL get with a GUE class, is an instructor who is required to recertify every few years, demonstrating both his personal diving skills and his ability to teach. You WILL get a predictable curriculum, and you can look to see what it is before you take the class. You WILL be held to high standards of performance, and you know what those are before you get there. And in the case of this particular person seeking instruction, not only the agency but a specific instructor (who has a stellar reputation with everybody) has been recommended.

As far as "Cove 2 warriors" goes . . . yeah, some people like GUE because they need a reason to dive, and practicing something gives them that. If you don't like marine life but you still want to do a Wednesday night shore dive, skills can be as good a reason as any. I don't understand that, because I love critters, but there's room in the water for all of us. And I do way too much C2 diving myself, simply because I don't have to worry about our rotten spring tides there, it's a short drive, there's easy parking, accessible restrooms, and a sheltered, easy entry. If you have one night (or day) a week to dive, setting all the variables in your favor can make a lot of sense. Or you can drive out to Hood Canal and try to get in and out of the water in a diving wind with breakers . . . right, Bob?

absolutely. but to do some dives with a group like that and come away thinking GUE training made them that way isn't fair.
my GUE classes have contained none of those types of people. they're exploring and doing great diving before and after the classes.

and the instructors are always doing fun diving in my experience. Gideon is often in mexico, florida and asia doing big dives on his RB80, john kendall just did a sweet dive at eagle's nest with us and we had fun playing with his underwater ipad (FYI you can't see the damn thing in direct sunlight). the mexico guys are ALWAYS doing amazing stuff down there when not teaching. kirill is all over town with his JJ etc.

these gue groups and their bag shooting and valve turning is another discussion IMO

 

[TSandM]

Totally agree! The people gravitated to a kind of diving because of who they were -- the training didn't take divers who were fish geeks, photographers, or explorers and turn them into mindless knob turning robots .

There are lots of the "other' kind of diver in our local group -- Jeremy Freestone, who I believe has finished ALL the dives in the Fischnaller Northwest Shore Dives book (and dragged a lot of other people with him, to do some very fun dives!). Kathryn Arant has several of her octopus photos on display at the Seattle Aquarium. Koos du Preez, our local instructor, joined forces with another local diver to do a very detailed sonar map of Lake Union, and has a map of Lake Washington with over a hundred targets marked for exploration . . . and that has already begun.

The C2 warriors are visible, in part because ALL of us tend to hang around C2 a fair amount, for the reasons I already stated.

But none of this is particularly relevant to the OP. He wants some tech training, and he wants to know ahead of time that it will be of good quality and that he will be trained properly. There have been quite a few recommendations for Gideon Liew as an instructor. I don't know of anybody who doesn't like Gideon or hasn't liked a class they have taken from him. I've met him and liked him a lot; I got to watch him teach just a little bit, and I liked that, too. The OP could do worse. But one of the things nobody has mentioned is that, unless Gideon is teaching tech classes for another agency as well, the OP would have to take and pass Fundamentals before taking a tech class from Gid.

 

[LiteHedded]

very true. he would need to pass that first.

he can take rec3 without a tech pass

 

[PfcAJ]

very true. he would need to pass that first.

he can take rec3 without a tech pass

jiminey christmas

 

[Kevrumbo]

Epoque, you are based in the UK. You have several of the some of the world's top instructors on your doorstep. With GUE, you have Rich Walker, John Kendall, and sometimes Graham Blackmore (sometimes he is in Asia). TDI you have Mark Powell and several others. Paul Toomer for RAID. Ian France, Phil Short, and several others with IANTD. I forget which agency Martin Robson teaches for. Most of the top guys can be found at Tek Camp down at Vobster Quay in Somerset for a week in July. I suggest popping down to that for the week, and participating in the workshops with all of the instructors named above and more. The price ranges from £350-£550 (i think) for the week, and includes tons of stuff. Find an instructor you like, and then book a course with them. Most will teach courses in places like Croatia and Malta.

Thanks Kevrumbo - I will be heading to Phillipines later in the year fingers crossed. . . What do I do if I go to a school which has a few tech instructors - I can't interview them How can I tactfully get to know them?

Here's a news letter from Tech Asia showing all the latest and future planned activities, with instructors & students from all over the world coming to comfortably & economically train whilst having fun on holiday in tropical SE Asia/Philippines. (My IANTD Technical Wreck Instructor in residence there in Puerto Galera, Sam Collett, is an expat from the UK; Resident GUE Instructor Anders Kristensen is expat Scandanvian from Denmark; GUE Instructor Graham Blackmore UK expat and Gideon Liew GUE Instructor Trainer/Evaluator from Singapore frequently hold their Courses there, as well as exploring several Philippine Cave Systems. . .)

http://www.asiadivers.com/news/tech/technews.html

 

[kr2y5]

There seems to be an implicit assumption that it is best to take all the training from a single agency, I am not sure that I would agree...

I started with TDI, and my training has left me with some wrinkles here and there that my GUE friends have been helping me to iron out. If one is lucky with the choice of a TDI instructor, perhaps they can get all of the same from the same person, but finding that person may not be easy. It seems to me that whether one goes GUE route or not, being exposed to some of the training and culture is incredibly useful.

On the other hand, if I were to start with GUE and nothing else, go that route, and strictly obey all the rules along the way, I would likely die of boredom by now... I could hardly dive wrecks in Florida or NJ coast without first completing T1, sinking thousands of $$$ in the process (not to mention that when I lived in NY, the closest instructor was half a day of driving away). How do you get to that level without an opportunity to practice? From what I've seen, even team-oriented folks would sometimes "borrow" certifications from various other agencies to do a fun or practice dive at a higher level. This, to me, clearly indicates that something is missing.

A bit like trying to learn Chinese by first, learning all the 300 or radicals, then memorizing 5000 characters, before learning the actual words and grammar. I personally rather prefer an approach that can give me a taste of something early on, so that I can get excited about it, and motivate me to go further...

...and with this said, I think TDI curriculum does a better job of providing a baby-level introductory tech training with their intro to tech, adv. nitrox, and deco procedures. I think the TDI => GUE => TBD route is not a bad one to consider.

 

[LiteHedded]

There seems to be an implicit assumption that it is best to take all the training from a single agency, I am not sure that I would agree...

I started with TDI, and my training has left me with some wrinkles here and there that my GUE friends have been helping me to iron out. If one is lucky with the choice of a TDI instructor, perhaps they can get all of the same from the same person, but finding that person may not be easy. It seems to me that whether one goes GUE route or not, being exposed to some of the training and culture is incredibly useful.

On the other hand, if I were to start with GUE and nothing else, go that route, and strictly obey all the rules along the way, I would likely die of boredom by now... I could hardly dive wrecks in Florida or NJ coast without first completing T1, sinking thousands of $$$ in the process (not to mention that when I lived in NY, the closest instructor was half a day of driving away). How do you get to that level without an opportunity to practice? From what I've seen, even team-oriented folks would sometimes "borrow" certifications from various other agencies to do a fun or practice dive at a higher level. This, to me, clearly indicates that something is missing.

A bit like trying to learn Chinese by first, learning all the 300 or radicals, then memorizing 5000 characters, before learning the actual words and grammar. I personally rather prefer an approach that can give me a taste of something early on, so that I can get excited about it, and motivate me to go further...

...and with this said, I think TDI curriculum does a better job of providing a baby-level introductory tech training with their intro to tech, adv. nitrox, and deco procedures. I think the TDI => GUE => TBD route is not a bad one to consider.

well that's just not true

 

[boulderjohn]

The fact remains that there are some very big differences in the training progression for the different tech agencies, and anyone entering into a training program should know from the start what those differences are before making a commitment.

Let me give you one example of the difference between the initial steps in the TDI tech program and the PADI tech program, the ones prior to trimix. The TDI tech program begins with Intro to Tech, which has minimal diver prerequisites. That course introduces the nature of tech diving, explains the equipment, and teaches kicking skills, buoyancy, trim, etc. There is no decompression involved. Then comes Advanced Nitrox, which prepares the student for diving higher levels of nitrox, again without decompression diving. For that reason it is often taught along with the third course, decompression procedures, where most of the decompression theory is found. After that you can do decompression diving on air or nitrox. The PADI program is very much different. It has much more significant prerequisites, including number of dives, number of deep dives, and the Deep Diver Specialty. The course is front loaded in that the first level (Tec 40) contains a lot of theory and practice, after which the diver can do minor decompression diving (10 minutes of deco). The second course (Tec 45) also contains a lot more theory and extends the diver's certification to do more serious decompression diving, including the use of oxygen to accelerate decompression. The third course, Tec 50, does not add much theory at all, because that was mostly done earlier. It primarily prepares the student to use two decompression gases on their dives. Those are two very different approaches.

After that, as I said earlier, if you want to compare programs, look at how many steps (etc.) are required to get through hypoxic trimix certifications. That's where things can get very different. Don't just look at the number of courses and the requirements for each course. Look at what is required BETWEEN the courses in terms of experience dives. How long will it take you to get those all in?

When I crossed over from one program to another, my training had me at roughly what the average tech agency would put as the completion of normoxic trimix training. For most agencies, I was one course away from completion. For the agency with which I was training, I was three courses away from completion. Not only that, in between courses there was a requirement for a total of 95 experience dives, divided among each level of training, a requirement missing from most agencies. Not only that, I could not pursue that path on my own. For each course, I had to have another student working as my training partner, another student who had completed the same level of training I had and who had completed all the required experience dives. It is hard to get those dives in when you live in Colorado, where you have to travel at least 6 hours for suitable depths. I talked to the people with whom I was training to try to estimate when one of them would have the required experience dives to train at the next level with me. I tried to guess at how long it would take me to get through the advanced trimix level with that agency, especially given the rate the rest of them were progressing. My honest best guess was 7 years. I decided to switch. that was a number of years ago. Looking back and seeing how things worked out with the rest of the group, I would say my 7 year estimate was optimistic.

So I got my TDI advanced Trimix certification not too long after making the switch, and I get to do all the decompression diving I want and can afford. I feel I have all the skills I need to complete those dives, and the people I dive with seem to be similarly prepared and competent. If I had stayed with that other agency, I would probably still be about in the middle of my training process.