Bent in Belize--Blue Hole Incident

[boulderjohn]

Short answer: Here in the Northeastern US, he wouldn't be allowed to get on the boat without a redundant air source, a reel, a lift bag, etc. Required minimum safety equipment on most boats.

I read through this whole thing and it shocks me that everyone seems to think it's ok to do three dives in a day. Granted, my dives are usually in the 100 minute to 2 hour range, but I can count on one hand the number of times I've done two dives in a day in the past ten years. I'm no instructor or MD, but I think multiple dives put way more wear and tear on the body and increase the liklihood of having a problem even if you follow proper deco schedules, which was not the case here.

The rules that apparently exist in the northeast are not common to anywhere else in the U.S. or the world that I have experienced. I have never been required to have a redundant air source, reel, or liftbag on anything other than a tech dive.

As for three dives a day, it is extremely common throughout the world. People are doing 4-5 dives a day all over the world on liveaboards. People who go diving in resort areas very often do 3-4 dives per day. Your opinion is very clearly in the minority here, which is OK, but why would you be shocked to see it?

 

[scubadada]

The fact that the math says you can do the dive within NDL's on an AL80 does not make it any less risky. A first stage freeflow and your back gas is gone in seconds. A dive this deep should never be attempted without redundant air. I appreciate what you say about personal risk tolerance but, with respect, if you take that risk and things go south in a hurry someone has to recover your body and your loved one's are left to deal with the loss.


I don't challenge your experience or training I am just trying to make the point that "personal risk" is rarely "personal". The outcome affects so many other people.

Bob

Fair point, see my post #176 regarding back up air. I neglected to include this in my initial post. I did assume I would not be diving with my pony and/or diving alone.

Good diving, Craig

 

[vladimir]

it shocks me that everyone seems to think it's ok to do three dives in a day.

It is pretty standard on liveaboards to do 3-5 dives a day for 6-9 days or more. I am not as aggressive as I once was, but I have done ~22 dives in 5-1/2 days on the Palau Aggressor, ~28 dives in 7-1/2 dive days aboard the Undersea Hunter, etc. I can only recall one liveaboard (of 11) where I did less than 3 dives on a full dive day. There are usually divers aboard who do all the scheduled dives—basically 5 dives per full day on most of the boats I've been on.

---------- Post Merged at 12:36 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 12:25 AM ----------

Someone will put their life in danger to come look for you and recover your body.

Please don't.

 

[scubadada]

Short answer: Here in the Northeastern US, he wouldn't be allowed to get on the boat without a redundant air source, a reel, a lift bag, etc. Required minimum safety equipment on most boats.

I read through this whole thing and it shocks me that everyone seems to think it's ok to do three dives in a day. Granted, my dives are usually in the 100 minute to 2 hour range, but I can count on one hand the number of times I've done two dives in a day in the past ten years. I'm no instructor or MD, but I think multiple dives put way more wear and tear on the body and increase the liklihood of having a problem even if you follow proper deco schedules, which was not the case here.

Hi Bill,

The equipment requirements in the NE likely assume you are or could be diving alone in a relatively harsh environment and are not unreasonable under those circumstances. I've not seen these requirements replicated in entirely elsewhere but several of the components are frequently invoked. A redundant air supply is often required for solo diving. A SMB is frequently required for brisk drift dives (separation from flag). I've never used my pony in an emergency but practice using it often. I carry my reel and SMB on every dive and have routinely deployed it many times during drift dives but have not needed it in an emergency. I've never used my DiveAlert but occasionally test it (in an appropriate place, it is very loud). Though I have never been OOA, had another underwater emergency, nor encountered another dive with the same, I am prepared and share that philosophy with you.

In the US, it is not uncommon for an operator to require AOW certification or relevant recent diving experience to participate in some of the deeper dives. Though of controversial value and discussed many times on SB, I'm somewhat surprised that such a requirement is not in place for divers wanting to experience the Blue Hole

Lastly, I cannot agree with you regarding your comment on multiple dives per day. Many of us successfully and safely perform multiple dives per day following appropriate guidelines for nitrogen and oxygen exposure.

Good diving, Craig

 

[flareside]

...I think multiple dives put way more wear and tear on the body...

Maybe it's time you try diving in the caribbean. The most stress you have there is getting back on the boat.

 

[AfterDark]

Hi Bill,

The equipment requirements in the NE likely assume you are or could be diving alone in a relatively harsh environment and are not unreasonable under those circumstances. I've not seen these requirements replicated in entirely elsewhere but several of the components are frequently invoked. A redundant air supply is often required for solo diving. A SMB is frequently required for brisk drift dives (separation from flag). I've never used my pony in an emergency but practice using it often. I carry my reel and SMB on every dive and have routinely deployed it many times during drift dives but have not needed it in an emergency. I've never used my DiveAlert but occasionally test it (in an appropriate place, it is very loud). Though I have never been OOA, had another underwater emergency, nor encountered another dive with the same, I am prepared and share that philosophy with you.

In the US, it is not uncommon for an operator to require AOW certification or relevant recent diving experience to participate in some of the deeper dives. Though of controversial value and discussed many times on SB, I'm somewhat surprised that such a requirement is not in place for divers wanting to experience the Blue Hole

Lastly, I cannot agree with you regarding your comment on multiple dives per day. Many of us successfully and safely perform multiple dives per day following appropriate guidelines for nitrogen and oxygen exposure.

Good diving, Craig

Here is an ad from the LDS here in NE, any dive past 60fsw and wrecks usually require the same equipment. Like all rules they are felxible but a good guide of what a diver would need here in NE for a charter. RI does have fishing boats that will taxi you out and bring you back but that's it, you could wear an anchor around your neck. They'd look at you funny but go about their business. They require cash.

Aug. 26, 2012 - Sunday U853 U Boat Charter Aboard Canned Air
SOLD OUT!!! Sunday Charter to The U 853 aboard
Canned Air U Boat / U 853 Charter U-853 Trip Join us as we dive the U853 Nazi
submarine, a Type IX-C-40 built in the Deschimag Yard in Germany. We can remain
at the U Boat for the second dive or vote on another wreck by those aboard
according to conditions. This Charter, Canned Air Charters, and Giant Stride
Dive Shop, requires an advanced cert. with some experience diving to depths
greater than 100 ft. in New England (or similar) waters. A redundant air source,
lift bag or safety sausage, and whistle or horn is required. Pony bottles and
regs are available to rent. Cost is $140.00 per diver and only 6 spots are
available. Reservations are made by full pre-payment that is non refundable. If
you cancel your reservation you forfeit the full payment. If our captain cancels
the trip, we issue a full refund if you paid in cash and a store credit if paid
by credit card. Cancellations by our Captain are made on the day of the charter,
one hour before sailing time. We cannot guarantee dive sites, alternate dive
site selection does not constitute a cancellation or a refund. Please be at the
new slip which is Point View Marina 11 Sherman Rd, Wakefield, RI 02879, to board
"Canned Air" 1/2 hour before sailing time, to fill out a waiver, present a
certification card and get fully loaded 15 minutes before departure time. Our
boats sail on time and if you miss the boat it's your loss. Sign up now as these
charters sell out quickly. Your seat is held by full prepayment only.

 

[peterbj7]

Short answer: Here in the Northeastern US, he wouldn't be allowed to get on the boat without a redundant air source, a reel, a lift bag, etc. Required minimum safety equipment on most boats.

I read through this whole thing and it shocks me that everyone seems to think it's ok to do three dives in a day. Granted, my dives are usually in the 100 minute to 2 hour range, but I can count on one hand the number of times I've done two dives in a day in the past ten years. I'm no instructor or MD, but I think multiple dives put way more wear and tear on the body and increase the liklihood of having a problem even if you follow proper deco schedules, which was not the case here.

I've not dived in the US NE but I have dived in pretty harsh conditions in Britain, Alaska and elsewhere. It's normal in those places to have a reel and DSMB (not a lift bag, which we use for lifting things, although we'll usually carry one or two of those for that purpose). A redundant gas source is common but not universal and certainly not mandated, except on dives where it's required. Note - a redundant gas source is not the same thing as a redundant first stage, which obviously you would have with a manifolded twinset. In those conditions I will usually have at least one independent gas source, often two or more, a reel permanently attached to a red DSMB for normal ascents, a second yellow DSMB for emergencies, two spare reels and two 50kg lift bags. But if I were to carry that stuff on a normal warm water dive I would be rather overdressed.

As to multiple dives, many divers experienced in cold water make multiple dives when they go to warmer water. My personal record has been 7 dives a day for 3 days from a liveaboard in the Red Sea. Yet when making deep trimix dives in the Atlantic I usually make just one dive a day. It's horses for courses. There is absolutely nothing wrong with multiple dives.

 

[Hank49]

A
I would like to add a question for all those people that are arguing that there is nothing unsafe about taking a newly certified diver to 150+ feet with no buddy and an AL80 strapped to their back.

Let's assume you have a child that was just certified and they wanted to do this dive without you and under the conditions stipulated above. Let's also say they have the sac rate of the average adult male. Would you feel absolutely no concern about letting them go?

That's a very good point. Personally, I hope I have instilled in my two children that dive, the importance of being able to judge when they're getting in "over their heads" and not be hesitant to thumb a dive.

 

[Mike]

Here is an ad from the LDS here in NE, any dive past 60fsw and wrecks usually require the same equipment. Like all rules they are felxible but a good guide of what a diver would need here in NE for a charter. RI does have fishing boats that will taxi you out and bring you back but that's it, you could wear an anchor around your neck. They'd look at you funny but go about their business. They require cash.

Aug. 26, 2012 - Sunday U853 U Boat Charter Aboard Canned Air
SOLD OUT!!! Sunday Charter to The U 853 aboard
Canned Air U Boat / U 853 Charter U-853 Trip Join us as we dive the U853 Nazi
submarine, a Type IX-C-40 built in the Deschimag Yard in Germany. We can remain
at the U Boat for the second dive or vote on another wreck by those aboard
according to conditions. This Charter, Canned Air Charters, and Giant Stride
Dive Shop, requires an advanced cert. with some experience diving to depths
greater than 100 ft. in New England (or similar) waters. A redundant air source,
lift bag or safety sausage, and whistle or horn is required. Pony bottles and
regs are available to rent. Cost is $140.00 per diver and only 6 spots are
available. Reservations are made by full pre-payment that is non refundable. If
you cancel your reservation you forfeit the full payment. If our captain cancels
the trip, we issue a full refund if you paid in cash and a store credit if paid
by credit card. Cancellations by our Captain are made on the day of the charter,
one hour before sailing time. We cannot guarantee dive sites, alternate dive
site selection does not constitute a cancellation or a refund. Please be at the
new slip which is Point View Marina 11 Sherman Rd, Wakefield, RI 02879, to board
"Canned Air" 1/2 hour before sailing time, to fill out a waiver, present a
certification card and get fully loaded 15 minutes before departure time. Our
boats sail on time and if you miss the boat it's your loss. Sign up now as these
charters sell out quickly. Your seat is held by full prepayment only.

The reason that dive ops in United States waters follow proper guidelines and procedures for safety and screening divers is that in the United States if a business is found negligent they can be sued, AND they probably have something to lose.

Outside the US that all changes, and obviously dive operations pretty much demonstrate their lack of fear of financial loss due to negligence by making up whatever rules they want, which most of the time the rules if any are rules based on procedures to maximize profitability and not based on safety.

Rule #1 in Belize- if you have the dough, you get to go.

 

[Hank49]

The reason that dive ops in United States waters follow proper guidelines and procedures for safety and screening divers is that in the United States if a business is found negligent they can be sued, AND they probably have something to lose.

Outside the US that all changes, and obviously dive operations pretty much demonstrate their lack of fear of financial loss due to negligence by making up whatever rules they want, which most of the time the rules if any are rules based on procedures to maximize profitability and not based on safety.

Rule #1 in Belize- if you have the dough, you get to go.

Based on the requirements and scheduling posted for diving off the Canned Air, what would have prevented the same thing from happening to a diver there?