Kevrumbo
Banned
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Bail out Pony Tank 13 cft or 19cft?
- Thread starter vilinsky
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Kevrumbo
Banned
- Messages
- 5,659
- Reaction score
- 1,366
- # of dives
- 1000 - 2499
Yeah understood. Seriously. That AL13 pony possibly reconfigured as a sling bottle clipped-off to a hip D-ring is a better & better looking idea with potential once again for my Solo Dives.Face it. You have more than 1000 dives. Whatever you post here is going to be seen by new divers as good advice! With great power comes great responsibility...
In the meantime, Valve Feathering/Modulation with CESA on a catastrophic free flow along with pinching/kinking the hose AND venting the Buoyancy Wing AND venting the Drysuit on ascent (Huh, I only have two hands to somehow make this all work by myself). . .
Flashx45
Registered
We come from different cultures apparently. I come from the military aviation culture, and I never heard someone say "You fly with an ejection seat? Why are you planning to run out of gas? What problem is an ejection seat going to fix that your fuel gage won't" I never had to use my ejection seat, and haven't had to use my pony yet either. Hope it stays that way. Glad I have both.
We've already discussed my original comment further down in the thread and addressed some of the other side of the argument. We could go on and on, "why do you wear a seat belt?" etc. The OP asked about a pony for recreational dives. I took that literally and went with no deco or overhead. I also, possibly unfairly, associated recreational diving with beginner divers. If you see @kevrumbo’s response in post #33, I think he has a great post about the possible scenario that could unfold with said pony bottle. This same scenario is more than likely why CESA is taught. Is CESA the best option, probably not. However, like anything, you need to weigh the risks and decide what you are willing to accept. I always dive with a redundant gas source, but it is never a 13cuft or 19cuft cylinder.
84CJ7
Contributor
I made the same choice as OP and went with the 19 because it is the same diameter as the 13, not too terribly much taller, and only 2 lbs heavier dry (less than 1lb buoyancy difference) but gives you a comparitively much larger percentage of air to work with.
I also tried back mounting it but realized it put my center of gravity annoyingly high and caused me to roll even when I counter weighted on the other side, plus I can't hand it off that way.
Now I use it clipped or slung (still fiddling with the exact attachment) in front. My exact procedure with it hasn't been tested, but the intention is to not bother with my buddies air at all if I have an issue or offer them the whole pony rig to carry if they have an issue.
It is always carried with the air turned on.
With my lack of experience and any tech certs I may not be the most qualified to answer the yes or no to pony bottles and how best they are used but I will relate the story that caused me to consider them mandatory.
I was on a fun day dive sort of thing in a quarry with a local LDS that had a DM (also an instructor) leading the group almost as more of a tour guide than a babysitter. I was assigned an instabuddy who seemed as inexperienced as I was at the time (and honestly still am) but also competent and level headed.
We went down through some submerged standing trees to an observation deck at about 50 feet that used to look over a tall cliff where the first ledge was over 200 feet down (I forget). We then per the plan went over the cliff to do a wall dive with the DM at the bottom of the group and the rest of us strung out in what looked like a handful of rocks tossed over the edge.
Due to my attention being on my own descent speed for my first "bottomless" wall dive it took a bit before I turned and noticed my buddy was not next to me anymore (oops on me) and looked up to see him clutching an old warning sign at the cliff top 20 feet above me with air spewing out of his reg. I swam back to him and offered him my octo but he seemed unsure of how to react (mild passive sort of panic I think) and I didn't want to force any action on him and make things worse.
The DM was fairly on the ball and got there rather quickly after I did and being much better trained took over on a buddy breathing ascent with him which I followed but about half way up the buddy dumped all his air from his bcd and tried to stop.
It turns out he had a reverse block and that was about the time his free flow finished emptying his tank.
The DM wasn't ready for the sudden buoyancy swing and both of them started a crash dive with too many hands tied up just staying together to properly sort it out. I just watched not wanting to keep bounce diving as they plunged 20 or 30 feet back down crashing through trees and almost rolling over the edge of the cliff. I can't help but wonder how deep it would have gone if they had been only a few feet farther away and over the deep bottom.
The DM dropped my buddies weights either during the decent or as they crashed and they started back up and made a somewhat overly fast but less than cesa speed ascent and I followed them up. Luckily we didn't have any significant bottom time at that point.
What I gathered from that experience is that if I hadn't noticed my buddy stopped following me and the DM had also been clueless he would have been screwed and that could have been me. When buddy diving the reality is you either watch your buddy non stop or you enjoy the dive, its hard to do both perfectly.
If that had been me a 19cf pony would have been very welcome.
The other half of that is the DM getting dragged down with the diver to the bottom. As bad as it sounds I will never let anyone get me killed while diving and I would much rather not be physically attached to you and just swim close by to monitor the situation.
I would say I am a proponent of group solo diving rather than buddy diving. You are just there to enjoy the dive with them and as a possible backup in case of diver failure rather than gear failure.
I also tried back mounting it but realized it put my center of gravity annoyingly high and caused me to roll even when I counter weighted on the other side, plus I can't hand it off that way.
Now I use it clipped or slung (still fiddling with the exact attachment) in front. My exact procedure with it hasn't been tested, but the intention is to not bother with my buddies air at all if I have an issue or offer them the whole pony rig to carry if they have an issue.
It is always carried with the air turned on.
With my lack of experience and any tech certs I may not be the most qualified to answer the yes or no to pony bottles and how best they are used but I will relate the story that caused me to consider them mandatory.
I was on a fun day dive sort of thing in a quarry with a local LDS that had a DM (also an instructor) leading the group almost as more of a tour guide than a babysitter. I was assigned an instabuddy who seemed as inexperienced as I was at the time (and honestly still am) but also competent and level headed.
We went down through some submerged standing trees to an observation deck at about 50 feet that used to look over a tall cliff where the first ledge was over 200 feet down (I forget). We then per the plan went over the cliff to do a wall dive with the DM at the bottom of the group and the rest of us strung out in what looked like a handful of rocks tossed over the edge.
Due to my attention being on my own descent speed for my first "bottomless" wall dive it took a bit before I turned and noticed my buddy was not next to me anymore (oops on me) and looked up to see him clutching an old warning sign at the cliff top 20 feet above me with air spewing out of his reg. I swam back to him and offered him my octo but he seemed unsure of how to react (mild passive sort of panic I think) and I didn't want to force any action on him and make things worse.
The DM was fairly on the ball and got there rather quickly after I did and being much better trained took over on a buddy breathing ascent with him which I followed but about half way up the buddy dumped all his air from his bcd and tried to stop.
It turns out he had a reverse block and that was about the time his free flow finished emptying his tank.
The DM wasn't ready for the sudden buoyancy swing and both of them started a crash dive with too many hands tied up just staying together to properly sort it out. I just watched not wanting to keep bounce diving as they plunged 20 or 30 feet back down crashing through trees and almost rolling over the edge of the cliff. I can't help but wonder how deep it would have gone if they had been only a few feet farther away and over the deep bottom.
The DM dropped my buddies weights either during the decent or as they crashed and they started back up and made a somewhat overly fast but less than cesa speed ascent and I followed them up. Luckily we didn't have any significant bottom time at that point.
What I gathered from that experience is that if I hadn't noticed my buddy stopped following me and the DM had also been clueless he would have been screwed and that could have been me. When buddy diving the reality is you either watch your buddy non stop or you enjoy the dive, its hard to do both perfectly.
If that had been me a 19cf pony would have been very welcome.
The other half of that is the DM getting dragged down with the diver to the bottom. As bad as it sounds I will never let anyone get me killed while diving and I would much rather not be physically attached to you and just swim close by to monitor the situation.
I would say I am a proponent of group solo diving rather than buddy diving. You are just there to enjoy the dive with them and as a possible backup in case of diver failure rather than gear failure.
My take on this (and the reason I feel bigger is better for ponies) is this.
If you need to go onto your pony it's likely you're going to be stressed. Having the comfort in knowing you have more than ample gas to manage a controlled ascent goes along way to alleviating this. Making a SS also gives time to regain composure.
A diver in the sea for instance making a direct ascent with no stop, in a stressed situation, might forget to shoot their dsmb. This in turn has the potential to cause issues if they suddenly surface in an area of boat traffic. The same diver making a stop is more likely to invoke muscle memory and shoot their dsmb and listen for boat traffic.
I've needed to go to a pony, so know teh last thing you want to worry about is gas contents
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