Bail out Pony Tank 13 cft or 19cft?

[Chris H]

"How do you make God laugh? Tell him your plans..."

If you are seriously questioning the reasoning behind redundant gear, read this...

No, I’m not. I dive doubles, side mount, or CCR with Bailout on every dive. I like redundancy. However, the OP stated he was doing recreational dives. I’m questioning the need for a pony bottle on a recreational dive. I debated posting my original comment because I’m not into arguing on the internet. If you feel that carrying 13cuft if gas could be the difference between life and death on a recreational dive, carry the thing. However, I think it ads additional complexity.
What is the proper pony protocol? Do you have 3 2nd stages or two? Do you donate the reg on the pony or do you still have a donateable 2nd stage on your primary 1st stage?
If the OP said they were considering transitioning to tech diving I would have said sling a 40 all day long.

 

[doctormike]

No, I’m not. I dive doubles, side mount, or CCR with Bailout on every dive. I like redundancy. However, the OP stated he was doing recreational dives. I’m questioning the need for a pony bottle on a recreational dive. I debated posting my original comment because I’m not into arguing on the internet. If you feel that carrying 13cuft if gas could be the difference between life and death on a recreational dive, carry the thing. However, I think it ads additional complexity.
What is the proper pony protocol? Do you have 3 2nd stages or two? Do you donate the reg on the pony or do you still have a donateable 2nd stage on your primary 1st stage?
If the OP said they were considering transitioning to tech diving I would have said sling a 40 all day long.

Sorry, didn’t mean to come off as snarky, which I realize that I might have. But I also don’t think that you should dismiss the benefits of a redundant gas source for NDL diving.

Recreational dives can absolutely be beyond reliable CESA depths, and having a redundant gas supply can make the difference between a fast ascent with increased DCS risk and a calm, safe slow ascent with a safety stop. Not to mention making a panic spiral less likely.

Also, you implied that the only reason to have a RGS was because you ran out of gas through inattention, and I pointed out that you can dump a full AL80 in about a minute with a burst LP hose or even a free flow.

One of the main benefits of the buddy system noted by its proponents is that your buddy is a redundant gas source. So is a buddy unnecessary if you are only doing recreational diving, assuming you carry a couple of cutting devices?

 

[CWK]

I carry a small pony on recreational dives. I do not carry an octopus since the places that I dive require either a pony or an octopus but not both. I’m also certified self reliant, so for me there is a place for carrying a pony in recreational diving.

13 cf seems to be overkill for recreational. 3 or 6 cf should be sufficient.

 

[Chris H]

Sorry, didn’t mean to come off as snarky, which I realize that I might have. But I also don’t think that you should dismiss the benefits of a redundant gas source for NDL diving.

Recreational dives can absolutely be beyond reliable CESA depths, and having a redundant gas supply can make the difference between a fast ascent with increased DCS risk and a calm, safe slow ascent with a safety stop. Not to mention making a panic spiral less likely.

Also, you implied that the only reason to have a RGS was because you ran out of gas through inattention, and I pointed out that you can dump a full AL80 in about a minute with a burst LP hose or even a free flow.

One of the main benefits of the buddy system noted by its proponents is that your buddy is a redundant gas source. So is a buddy unnecessary if you are only doing recreational diving, assuming you carry a couple of cutting devices?

It’s all good. We are on a similar page, and you make some valid points. Do you think that a gas switch to a pony with a potential OOA would result in any sort of calm and collected ascent? How many LP hose failures have you been around? How about Free Flows? I’ve seen others have free flows in the Great Lakes, mostly on winter charters, but I personally have not had one, and I dive ScubaPro regs.
I don’t want to get too far off of the OP, because I’m sure I could search the forums and find all sorts of debates. Whatever choice the OP makes, there are several things to consider, and I’d recommend practicing using whatever they decide on. The buddy thing for me depends on the dive. Sometimes it’s nice to be alone.

 

[drbill]

I don't travel with mine. Started with a 13 and went to a 19. However I was doing a lot of very deep air dives back then and wanted the extra gas in case

 

[doctormike]

It’s all good. We are on a similar page, and you make some valid points.

Thanks! You too..

Do you think that a gas switch to a pony with a potential OOA would result in any sort of calm and collected ascent?

Of course! FAR more controlled than CESA, which is the alternative. I mean, the diver would still understandably be rattled since by definition they had actually gone OOA at depth, but the one thing that would help in that situation would be gas.

How many LP hose failures have you been around?

None, but I wouldn't base any redundant gear decisions on my personal experience. I never lost a mask, but I still carry a backup on deco dives. I haven't had to bail out of my CCR for real, but I still carry bailout.

How about Free Flows? I’ve seen others have free flows in the Great Lakes, mostly on winter charters, but I personally have not had one, and I dive ScubaPro regs.

Minor brief free flows happen all the time, and I can usually fix them with no problem. I had one free flow that I couldn't stop, on an iceberg dive in Newfoundland. Shut down the isolator and the free flowing post, and made the decision to thumb the dive. We were in an overhead environment, since you aren't supposed to surface near the berg because of the risk of getting hit by calving ice. So I did swim away from it and make my standard safe ascent on my remaining gas source. But if I had been on single tank, that free flow could have been a disaster.

I don’t want to get too far off of the OP, because I’m sure I could search the forums and find all sorts of debates. Whatever choice the OP makes, there are several things to consider, and I’d recommend practicing using whatever they decide on.

It's not really far off the OP, since the discussion is relevant to what he asked. It would be unhelpful to just answer "19" without any context. The whole point of this board is that people ask more experienced divers to help them make a choice, and those things to consider are exactly why we are discussing it. So I think that this is great! For the OP, and for us...

The buddy thing for me depends on the dive. Sometimes it’s nice to be alone.

Right, I like solo OC diving too, but (as per both training agencies that certify self-reliant divers) I carry a redundant gas supply for that. The point that I was making about buddy diving is that if one considers the main reason for having a buddy to be a RGS, then it's not inconsistent to say that an RGS would also be useful for a recreational dive.

 

[Kevrumbo]

Minor brief free flows happen all the time, and I can usually fix them with no problem. I had one free flow that I couldn't stop, on an iceberg dive in Newfoundland. Shut down the isolator and the free flowing post, and made the decision to thumb the dive. We were in an overhead environment, since you aren't supposed to surface near the berg because of the risk of getting hit by calving ice. So I did swim away from it and make my standard safe ascent on my remaining gas source. But if I had been on single tank, that free flow could have been a disaster.

I've had a Primary Reg 2nd Stage adjustment knob with the entire barrel assembly blow out during a solo dive weightbelt & buoyancy check on a sandy hard bottom at 6msw depth, resulting in an uncontrolled catastrophic free flow. I somewhat calmly reached back and shut down the tank valve of the backmounted single AL80 cylinder, switched to my necklaced secondary reg -and then proceeded to feather/modulate the tank valve while taking breaths as needed during the resultant CESA, a technique I first learned previously from Open Circuit Manifolded Twinset practice during Tech Wreck Overhead Courses & Training.

Anyway, knowing that I can physically reach and manipulate a single tank valve to "manually regulate" a free flowing 2nd Stage -or even a cut hose- on an emergency ascent, I don't bother to carry a redundant gas supply anymore when Solo Diving (my AL13 pony bottle is now relegated only to post-dive pressurized freshwater soaking & cleaning of my Regulators instead). . .

 

[doctormike]

I've had a Primary Reg 2nd Stage adjustment knob with the entire barrel assembly blow out during a solo dive weightbelt & buoyancy check on a sandy hard bottom at 6msw depth, resulting in an uncontrolled catastrophic free flow. I somewhat calmly reached back and shut down the tank valve of the backmounted single AL80 cylinder, switched to my necklaced secondary reg -and then proceeded to feather/modulate the tank valve while taking breaths as needed during the resultant CESA, a technique I first learned previously from Open Circuit Manifolded Twinset practice during Tech Wreck Overhead Courses & Training.

Anyway, knowing that I can physically reach and manipulate a single tank valve to "manually regulate" a free flowing 2nd Stage -or even a cut hose- on an emergency ascent, I don't bother to carry a redundant gas supply anymore when Solo Diving (my AL13 pony bottle is now relegated only to post-dive pressurized freshwater soaking & cleaning of my Regulators instead). . .

Huh. Well, first of all, in that situation another option would have been to kink the hose (assuming that it wasn't a kink-proof type), so that you wouldn't be losing gas out of the blown second stage with every feathered breath from your backup.

But I don't think that's good advice in general. You were in 6msw of water, so pretty much anything would have worked, especially since you had no significant N2 loading to add to CESA concerns. Having your backup plan be a CESA is a bad idea, since CESA has risks that aren't present in a normal ascent. Yeah, it's better than drowning, but why plan ahead of time to have a suboptimal outcome? To conclude that a redundant gas supply isn't necessary for solo diving because you made it to the roof from 6msw is normalization of deviance.

Lets say that you were at 30msw, and that you had 1000 psi left in your AL80. That gives you about 25 seconds until your tank is empty. You OK with that? I would rather have the gas to do my normal safe ascent.

 

[Kevrumbo]

But I don't think that's good advice in general. You were in 6msw of water, so pretty much anything would have worked, especially since you had no significant N2 loading to add to CESA concerns. Having your backup plan be a CESA is a bad idea, since CESA has risks that aren't present in a normal ascent. Yeah, it's better than drowning, but why plan ahead of time to have a suboptimal outcome? To conclude that a redundant gas supply isn't necessary for solo diving because you made it to the roof from 6msw is normalization of deviance.

It is simply a matter of fact and a draconian choice I've made -AND other than post#5 not meant to be additional advice on a Solo Dive option at all- notwithstanding any ascriptions or judgments of "suboptimal outcome" or "normalization of deviance " as you noted above. Est Quod Est. . .

Lets say that you were at 30msw, and that you had 1000 psi left in your AL80. That gives you about 25 seconds until your tank is empty. You OK with that? I would rather have the gas to do my normal safe ascent.

Good insight and fair objective point @doctormike , for everyone else here reading this thread to evaluate and consider. That AL13 pony bottle redundant gas source is worth reconsidering as a better more viable option (I used to deep solo dive manifolded AL80's but cannot anymore because of age and back problems).

6msw or 30msw -I'm OK & resigned with that for now- and will do my best to manage a Single Tank Valve Feather and CESA (task loaded while venting a wing and drysuit from depth on ascent as well), and have no allusions to an optimal outcome. . .

(btw, I still have a couple of breaths from my Wing too as a redundant gas source, lol)

 

[Chris H]

[QUOTE="Kevrumbo, post: 8272310, member:I used to solo dive manifolded AL80's but cannot anymore because age and back problems).[/QUOTE]
Have you tried 80's sidemounted? You still have to get the tanks to get the tanks to the water, but it might be easier on your back.