Bahamas: Missing Female Diver

[stadevene]

I really think we're missing far too much of this picture to do any root cause analysis at this stage. My questions are:
- what was the true diving situation? Buddy to the wife or just a dive guide to the couple? We don't have a clear indication yet as we're heard both cases from people close to the situation.

- what was the medical situation and was there anything disclosed?

- what did the DM do at depth to try and rescue and what did the DM observe from the diver?

- What was the dive plan/instructions to the diver? My experience so far in places such as Roatan where there are a number of wall dives is the guide/DM says follow him, stay near his depth or above, and at half a tank we'll turn around and head back to the boat at a shallower depth. He'll look back frequently but by no means is he watching the divers every second as part of the guide's role (I think) is to find interesting stuff for the divers to see.

An example: on one dive we were with a guide, parents who were both instructor certified and their two 18-20 year old kids. The kids were of course fairly new and at one point they ended up many feet below us (we were ~60 and I think they were in the 80s). The guide and both parents missed this initially but got their attention and had them come up and after the dive they got a talking to about following their dive plan and following the DM/guide. I bring this up because I think it's unfair to point all fingers at the DM right now without the complete story. As I've witnessed, it doesn't take long for someone to drift away - especially with novices and on wall dives with lots of interesting things to see.

It's been an interesting read through all of the comments and if these sorts of discussions help us become better, they are worth it. I'm curious to see the final story of this one is.

 

[divinotter]

Boulderjohn talked about using his wing while rescuing a diver descending too fast. Thassalmania (I think - I didn't go back to check) said something like dropping the victims weights at that depth would not be the best decision. I was taught in rescue class the first thing to do when coming upon any victim is to get control & drop their weights. (I guess this would mean they aren't continuing to fight with you and you aren't going to get into a wrestling match). That said- is this the wrong strategy since if there's air in their BC it would cause an uncontrolled ascent of both? I'm trying to re-think my mental picture of how a deep rescue would go. But the first part was to get control of the victim. I am picturing a scenario with an uncooperative victim by panic, narcosis, attitude etc. I'm thinking the safest thing to do is forget about the weights for the moment and grab the tank stem - their back to you and start kicking up- using some air in my or their BC if needed. After a couple seconds, then if they are too heavy drop their weights.
The problem with rescue classes is they emphasize most people needing rescue are just in need of some contact and reassurance to stem panic or are already unconscious. Most practice is done with the victim on the bottom and with an empty BC or already on the surface pretending to panic.

 

[Thalassamania]

Boulderjohn talked about using his wing while rescuing a diver descending too fast. Thassalmania (I think - I didn't go back to check) said something like dropping the victims weights at that depth would not be the best decision. I was taught in rescue class the first thing to do when coming upon any victim is to get control & drop their weights. (I guess this would mean they aren't continuing to fight with you and you aren't going to get into a wrestling match).

Dropping a weight belt at the surface makes sense, underwater the odds are that the victim will take off for the surface like a Trident missile ... not a good plan.

That said- is this the wrong strategy since if there's air in their BC it would cause an uncontrolled ascent of both? I'm trying to re-think my mental picture of how a deep rescue would go. But the first part was to get control of the victim. I am picturing a scenario with an uncooperative victim by panic, narcosis, attitude etc. I'm thinking the safest thing to do is forget about the weights for the moment and grab the tank stem - their back to you and start kicking up- using some air in my or their BC if needed. After a couple seconds, then if they are too heavy drop their weights.

The problem with rescue classes is they emphasize most people needing rescue are just in need of some contact and reassurance to stem panic or are already unconscious. Most practice is done with the victim on the bottom and with an empty BC or already on the surface pretending to panic.

You're on the right track, get them by the valve, get moving toward the surface, dump their vest, control the ascent with yours, once at the surface inflate their vest, drop their lead. That's the way I see it. Many rescue classes are taught by people who've not thought it through; and use protocols that are wrongheadedly based on what been learned about rescuing swimmers at the surface.

 

[mrlipis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrlipis View Post
Could you clarify investigated? Would this be on a first hand basis or would you consider this thread an investigation? I can only assume this would be a full time job for you.

Yes, it was a full time job. It is generally considered good form to read people's profiles before asking questions that might be answered there.

I have read your profile and my question was not answered there, but thank you for answering it the latter post.

Originally Posted by mrlipis View Post
I can not believe you are suggesting that a rescuer has never fallen victim. How about the Rouse's (The last dive)?

Please read my comments before dragging in cases that have no bearing on them. I have yet to see a case where a rescuer has fallen victim to the victim.

Do to my ignorance you will have to explain to me why this case is not relevant.

You have a very impressive resume. As stated previously I have read many of your posts and respect your opinions. I could learn a lot from you, however, you have had the opportunity to either take the humble approach or the arrogant approach and unfortunately you have chosen the latter. I believe no day should pass without bettering myself. I have a thirst for knowledge and I am on this board to, unfortunately, learn from others mistakes. I will continue to read your posts and take what I can from them. My mom once told me something. If you are good at something, you don't need to tell people, they will already know.

 

[cappyjon431]

I am in need of some clarification here. Is the claim that there has never been a documented case of where the rescuer has fallen victim to a victim, or is the claim that there has never been a case of a dive professional (acting as a rescuer) falling victim to a victim? There is a huge difference between these two claims, and to follow the discussion i need to better understand these claims.

 

[Thalassamania]

I have read your profile and my question was not answered there, but thank you for answering it the latter post.

From my profile: "I spent five years with the National Underwater Accident Data Center where I worked with John McAniff investigating diving accidents."

Is that somehow unclear?

I can not believe you are suggesting that a rescuer has never fallen victim. How about the Rouse's (The last dive)?

Do to my ignorance you will have to explain to me why this case is not relevant.

I think I already did.

You have a very impressive resume. As stated previously I have read many of your posts and respect your opinions. I could learn a lot from you, however, you have had the opportunity to either take the humble approach or the arrogant approach and unfortunately you have chosen the latter. I believe no day should pass without bettering myself. I have a thirst for knowledge and I am on this board to, unfortunately, learn from others mistakes. I will continue to read your posts and take what I can from them. My mom once told me something. If you are good at something, you don't need to tell people, they will already know.

I've taken the rational approach if you find that arrogant - that's your trip ... not mine. One of the problems with this discussion is that I really don't feel that the kind of behavior or reaction that I expect of the Instructor is either rocket science or superhuman ... it's what I expect of the entry level divers I train. If you find that arrogant, again that speaks more to your perception of your capabilities than anything else, after all ... if I were to mention that I was able to eat without drooling (much) you'd not find that arrogant; so it's more an issue with the difference you and I have in what we perceive to be difficult. John said it really well: "First of all, can a reasonably skilled instructor in contact with a diver who does not want to be brought to the surface successfully overcome that resistance? Of course! I honestly don't see a question here. The idea that only specially trained scientific divers can pull off such a feat is absurd. If I were in that situation and did not bring the diver up, I would be humiliated and depressed to the point that I would need serious therapy." I couldn't agree more.

I suppose you find these posts (in the same thread) to be arrogant also:

• "I'd pass the complement on to those whose shoulders I was lucky enough to be permitted to stand on: Lloyd Austin, Lee Somers, Walt Hendricks, Sr., Jim Stewart and to those I learned the most from, my students."
• "I know that I can do it because I do the only things better than taking a good class and practicing: I teach it regularly (it's part of our entry level course) and I play victim for other instructors whenever I have the chance."

I am in need of some clarification here. Is the claim that there has never been a documented case of where the rescuer has fallen victim to a victim, or is the claim that there has never been a case of a dive professional (acting as a rescuer) falling victim to a victim? There is a huge difference between these two claims, and to follow the discussion i need to better understand these claims.

This is a minuscule sidelight to the conversation. To the best of my recollection there has not been a case were the rescuer (pro or otherwise) died as a result of running afoul of a panicked diver/victim. Where were stories (in the old days) of double fatalities in caves that were a bit strange; and that were alleged to have included underwater knife fights over remaining air.

 

[mikemath]

I never said that there were not failed rescue attempts or that there were not double fatalities, there have been both. What I said was that, unlike swimming, there has never been a case where the victim in a diving accident forceably caused the death of one who was attempting a rescue, the concern that some on the board here are ascribing to the Instructor in this incident.

Unfortunately I was away for the past 36 hours, so apologies to those groaning that I'm dredging up this part of the thread again. Thal, it sounds like you are saying that no victim has been proven to have actively caused the death of a would-be-rescuer. Actions a victim could plausibly do to a rescuer in their panic would include pulling their mask off, pulling their regulator from their mouth, or pinning their arms by clinging to them. None would directly (actively) cause death, but all cause additional task loading and complicate a rescue effort. Proper rescue technique (getting behind the diver) would make all of these less likely, but they could happen.

I know you mentioned something to the effect of it being arbitrary to assign blame in the absence of a victim directly causing the death of a rescuer. However, it does seem to me that there are things that the victim can do that would increase the risk of a potential rescuer's death. Something like "contributing factors" to the death of a rescuer rather than a clear, direct cause. In your experience, are there cases where a would-be rescuer has died in conditions where had he not been conducting a rescue, but performing another similarly exerting task, his death would have been extremely unlikely? If so, that would seem to establish (without quantifying) that such risks exists and could be a rational reason to abort a rescue attempt if experienced.

Whether that was the case in this thread is unknown from the information we've seen so far.

 

[Thalassamania]

While none jump right to mind, I'm sure that there have been people injured or killed because in the need to attempt a rescue they ventured into conditions or environments that were more hazardous than they could handle ... but then keep in mind that a few divers do that every week for a multitude of reasons.

This whole question is a red herring in this case. What we have here is a certified diving instructor who could not, due first of all to demonstrable inattention and second of all to assumable lack of skill, handle an old lady who needed to be brought to the surface.

 

[ItsBruce]

... there has never been a case where the victim in a diving accident forceably caused the death of one who was attempting a rescue, ...

I'm not going to challenge Thal on that point. However, I wonder why that it is that "there has never been a case where the victim in a diving accident forceably caused the death of one who was attempting a rescue."

One possibility is that the "victim" cannot forceably caused the death of one who was attempting a rescue.

Another is that the rescuer follows his or her training and does not allow the victim to cause his or her death.

 

[DandyDon]

What are the chances that we could now agree: "A rescuing scuba diver is simply not in much danger in trying to assist or rescue another diver who may be panicked or narced" - agreed? :silly:

Speaking of the instance of the DM who had the 100+ ft encounter, not of the Inst who had the 170 ft view of bubbles below.