Bahamas: Missing Female Diver

[jkaterenchuk]

I'm not going to challenge Thal on that point. However, I wonder why that it is that "there has never been a case where the victim in a diving accident forceably caused the death of one who was attempting a rescue."

One possibility is that the "victim" cannot forceably caused the death of one who was attempting a rescue.

Another is that the rescuer follows his or her training and does not allow the victim to cause his or her death.

OR you miss another which is the victim and the person that attempted rescue are both dead and cannot tell you what happened and hence leave the expert accident analysts like Thal to guess what happened. Or maybe he can talk to the dead so that he does not have to draw logical conclussions from less than first hand facts like the rest of us.

Challenging him is futile as he has already professed to being an expert and stated his expert opinion so what ever you raise regardless of how plausible will be dissmissed if not inline with his expert opinion. Have you ever heard a expert admit they are wrong. About as likely as being able to prove a victim caused the death of their rescuer.

Just go back and read his replies to my presentation of the Thailand student and Instructor death about a month ago. We can never know the first hand facts because they are both dead but I think logic says that if the student had not panicked then the highly experienced instructor would not be a missing person.

OR how about this one I just came across...http://www.cdnn.info/news/safety/s090520d.html


John

 

[jkaterenchuk]

What are the chances that we could now agree: "A rescuing scuba diver is simply not in much danger in trying to assist or rescue another diver who may be panicked or narced" - agreed? :silly:

Speaking of the instance of the DM who had the 100+ ft encounter, not of the Inst who had the 170 ft view of bubbles below.

Even better how about we agree to disagree on this point. At least I'm done posting an opinion on it.

John

 

[boulderjohn]

The deaths of Chris and Chrissy Rousse has been raised several times as an example of the rescue of a panicked diver killing the rescuer. That is not really a fair description of what happened, and those extraordinary circumstances do not fit the topic of this conversation.

To begin with, both Chris (father) and Chrissy (son) made the bad decision to do an extremely difficult dive at about 230 feet on air. They were both certainly very much narced, and I would argue that narcosis was the primary trigger in their deaths.

With not much room to move in that wrecked uboat, Chrissy went in alone to search, using a cave line to find his way out (hopefully) when done. His father held the end of the line outside the sub. Something collapsed on Chrissy while he was in there. (When he was back on the boat, he said a sea monster had grabbed him--obviously some narcosis involved.) His father sensed something was wrong, went in, and he got him free. Unfortunately, he apparently lost control of the cave line. They had trouble finding their way out of the silted-out wreck and lost the path back to the entry point.

When the finally got out, they came out of a different hole that they entered. The conjecture is that they were confused (narcosis) about this and did not understand why the extra tanks they had brought for decompression were not there. (They were still at the original hole where they had left them.) Very low on air, they apparently both decided to do a direct ascent to the surface and hope for successful recompression therapy. (Their friend Bernie Chowdury had done the same thing not long before that.) In doing so, they ignored the fact that they did have one extra tank that could have bought them some time and the opportunity to get help without surfacing. (There was another diver decompressing at the time.)

Chris died almost immediately on the surface; Chrissy died in the hospital.

 

[pilot fish]

My memory of the story is they came out of the sub confused as to where their extra tanks were, they were about 8 ft in the other directon. Very low on air Chrissy bolted for the surface from 240 ft and his dad bolted right after him. Chris was dead at the surface and Chrissy died soon afterwards on the boat waiting fr rescue helio.

 

[pilot fish]

While none jump right to mind, I'm sure that there have been people injured or killed because in the need to attempt a rescue they ventured into conditions or environments that were more hazardous than they could handle ... but then keep in mind that a few divers do that every week for a multitude of reasons.

This whole question is a red herring in this case. What we have here is a certified diving instructor who could not, due first of all to demonstrable inattention and second of all to assumable lack of skill, handle an old lady who needed to be brought to the surface.

Yeah, that does sum it up. And she was a PAID DM buddy who's ONLY responsbility was to the deceased older lady diver.

 

[scubafanatic]

....too bad there's no way to make threads like this required reading (in the interest of full disclsure) for anyone considering...or being encouraged/'pushed' into becoming a DM. I remember back in my early days....as a newish diver, frequenting dive shops, loading up on new gear/classes....spending significant sums of money....being 'encouraged' to pursue the DM path.....I'd like to think the shops' motive was genuine, they perceived me as a good diver with good potential and much to offer...but I also believe there was a substantial financial incentive for them to 'flatter' me, so I'd sign up for ever more classes/training/gear and become an eternal cash-cow for them...the 'dark side' of being a DM was never addressed/emphasized !

 

[caseybird]

Clearly, the precipitaing factor in this incident is the difference in depth between the DM and the victim. No DM should let an assigned, dependent diver get more than 2 kicks away, and certainly no deeper than a few feet from the DM.
I've been a DM for dependent divers plenty of time. The only acceptable position is side by side, with no more than 2 foot depth difference. Believe me, my hand is on the tank valve if the diver starts drifting down. Most of the time they don't even know it.
(Just to clarify, I am often assigned to the younger student in a very well run OW program. I seem to have an affinity for it.)
We haven't discussed much what hapened before the dive.
Did the diver have an exam and a medical release before her dive? I don't know the local custom, but most dive ops don't require a medical from certified divers. In this case, the medical would have been the victim's responsibility to herself and her dive companions.
Was the DM and shop aware of her medical condition? (recent stroke).
Was there a max depth agreed on before the dive? 60 feet? 80 feet? Again, citing her lack of recent dive experience, I wouldn't let her get below 60. If I knew about her recent stroke, and if she had provided a signed medical form, PERHAPS, based on our PRE-DIVE discussion, I would have taken her on a 30 foot, hard bottom dive to ascertain her abilities.
It shouldn't have become a rescue scenario.

CF all around, leading to a lot of unnessesary heartache.

 

[DandyDon]

Looks like all sources have quit us...?

 

[pilot fish]

You nailed it, scubafanatic, it was just business with them. They do that to everyone, while they are a potential buyers of gear gear gear , classes and certs up the wazoo. Oh, man, can they charm you. Car salesmen.

....too bad there's no way to make threads like this required reading (in the interest of full disclsure) for anyone considering...or being encouraged/'pushed' into becoming a DM. I remember back in my early days....as a newish diver, frequenting dive shops, loading up on new gear/classes....spending significant sums of money....being 'encouraged' to pursue the DM path.....I'd like to think the shops' motive was genuine, they perceived me as a good diver with good potential and much to offer...but I also believe there was a substantial financial incentive for them to 'flatter' me, so I'd sign up for ever more classes/training/gear and become an eternal cash-cow for them...the 'dark side' of being a DM was never addressed/emphasized !

 

[MEG DIVER]

Looks like all sources have quit us...?

Hello Don we have not quit you ,we are now talking with Investigators on this case belive me I have not quit each day I look back with toughts of what may have taken place,I have talk with only 1 other diver thats was on this dive by email only ,the people that are investigating and doing deepwater scerches for Mrs.Wood are Dive & Marine Consultants International Inc., I talk with this investigator for nearly two hours
one day this week ,as I learn the facks I will let you all know .I will say this, sometimes even the rescuer may need to be rescued.