Bahamas: Missing Female Diver

[Thalassamania]

Agreed. But I stand by my statement that if someone wanted to do this, they could.

All that you can honestly say is that if someone wanted to do this you suspect that is would be beyond your capacity to prevent it ... you have no right to speak for other peoples' abilities or capacities.

 

[DandyDon]

If the DM knew, as we know now, that the diver would have died as a result, I'm sure they would have done something like that. However, were I in the DM's shoes, actively causing a buoyant ascent from 140 feet (or even 80 feet) has an extremely high level of risk itself. This thread could just as easily be about why "the idiot DiveMaster didn't allow a diver to dive their own plan, and caused their death by DCS because of their action".

Would any reasonable person assume that someone would willingly (as evidenced by continuing to dump air) descend further than 140 feet when released at that depth? Even if I had a physical altercation with a diver, I would expect them to build some horizontal distance, maybe flip me off, and head to a safer level, giving me an earful after the dive. Gesticulating angrily as they willingly descend to their deaths is not a reaction I would anticipate, and I can only imagine the horror the DM felt knowing that was a likely outcome after aborting their attempt to ascend with the diver.

I agree, pulling the weights and watch them ascend was not a good suggestion.

Ever been narced? It's sneaky. Different at different times. Makes you do things.

Do the Rescue course. I think your Inst will teach you get them up, one way or another, and as a last resort - get behind, take control, use control to what's needed. in position behind, holding tank valve, dropping Ms.W's weights - could still make a controlled ride - then ground her from diving. If only one O2 mask onboard, radio for another.

 

[Dantheengineer]

You bet. They've already exhibited very poor judgement to get that far and are unlikely to get any smarter as narcosis increases.

If I found a new or inexperienced diver @140', especially a diver that had hired me as a "buddy", I would assume a mental defect of some sort and act accordingly to do my best to prevent injury or death.

In any case, with a DM having a single person as a buddy, this entire incident should never have happened. The real failure here is once again "buddy skills" and "buddy separation". The diver should never have been allowed to drop any significant distance below the planned depth, which would have made all of this a non-issue.

Terry

To clarify, i'm told the DM was charged with both Mr and Mrs. Wood. But as you go on to say restricting the charges depth to that previously agreed would have negated the danger preemptively....

Yes Steve, but the only thing i'd affiliate myself with closer than my friends is the honest truth.

I'm sorry if i paint the operation as holier than thou. (I dont know how holy you are...........)
Of course it's not, i can tell you stories that'd curl your hair, even under the dive hood:blinking:

You are as entitled to your opinion as am i.

I'd again draw your attention to the number of actual reported accidents/dangerous incidents related to this operation (here on the "board" or anywhere), with specific reference to the number of clients serviced.

I've only heard of three in the last year or so. Bias or not, i hear most everything.
One of these was actually on an outer island (Andros) and on a chartered boat from SC's under the direction of a local dive operation. One was a snorkeller on the shark dive and the last was a heart attack. Only the heart attack vic actually expired.

I do try to stick to the facts. If you wish to ignore my posts i'll totally understand. S'your prerogative.
As i reiterate again.....i did not actually witness any of the events and only can attest to the characters involved in this instance.

I proffer the previous "report" only for conjecture and had hoped merely to "jog" Meg's memory into either substantiating or corroboration or denial of specific instances or in the hopes that onlyhalcyon will do the same in his own time.

 

[Doc Intrepid]

Hawaii JuJitsu KoDenKai - MizuJitsu - Scuba & Water Safety Course

At one point the Divemaster had hands-on with the victim, regardless of how far above the victim she may have been when the issue was recognized.

Therefore, I don't think the outcome can be entirely said to be caused by buddy separation.

During the hands-on episode, whatever actions the DM took, they were ineffective at fighting off an aggressive victim. Why the victim was aggressive is really only speculation at this point.

Short of this sort of training:
Hawaii JuJitsu KoDenKai - MizuJitsu - Scuba & Water Safety Course

I don't see how - at 140', on the way down fast, with someone venting their BC as you attempt to fill it - your basic DM is going to resolve that before both of them are heading south of 180'-200'

140 fsw is over 5 ATA and soon they would be passing through 6 ATA. Dropping someone's weights at 6 ATA is not going to produce the sudden bouyancy that I suspect some of you believe. Further up during the ascent? Yes. But at 165' and falling? No.

And one of the first rules of rescue is "don't lose someone in the attempt, providing two bodies to recover instead of one".

Feel free to disagree. YMMV.

Doc

 

[Dantheengineer]

Can we start a thread to vote on whether Deep Stops and Thal should Roshambo over it, South Park style?

Roshambo
In modern day United States, Roshambo or Rochambeau is when two or more guys kick, punch, squeeze, or knee each other in the groin to win something (an object, money, bets, etc..) untill one of them gives up or falls down. The last one standing wins. This is a modern American twist on the game.

It is also a very old word of Egyptian origin for the child game "Paper, Sissors, Rock".

In the TV series South Park, Cartman and his friends play the game "I'll Rochambeau you for it", by kicking the opponent in the crotch. The first one to fall over loses the game. This of course means the first person to go is usually the winner. This is a way of choosing, and it's called Rochambeau.

 

[deepstops]

All that you can honestly say is that if someone wanted to do this you suspect that is would be beyond your capacity to prevent it ... you have no right to speak for other peoples' abilities or capacities.

Nor do you.

But you're quick to place blame on this instructor.

 

[Web Monkey]

http://www.pixi.com/~mcjitsu/mizujitsu/mizujitsu.html
Short of this sort of training:
Hawaii JuJitsu KoDenKai - MizuJitsu - Scuba & Water Safety Course

I don't see how - at 140', on the way down fast, with someone venting their BC as you attempt to fill it - your basic DM is going to resolve that before both of them are heading south of 180'-200'

1. Get behind the soon-to-be-victim.
2. Grab the tank valve.
3. Inflate your BC as necessary and surface.

Terry

 

[Cave Diver]

Hawaii JuJitsu KoDenKai - MizuJitsu - Scuba & Water Safety Course

At one point the Divemaster had hands-on with the victim, regardless of how far above the victim she may have been when the issue was recognized.

Therefore, I don't think the outcome can be entirely said to be caused by buddy separation.

It would seem that the seperation was the precursor to the incident though. If the "hands on" had occured 20-40' shallower, would that have allowed the DM sufficient time to get their charge back under control and ascend safely?

It's hard to say for sure, but I think it does raise a good question.

 

[Doc Intrepid]

It would seem that the seperation was the precursor to the incident though. If the "hands on" had occured 20-40' shallower, would that have allowed the DM sufficient time to get their charge back under control and ascend safely?

It's hard to say for sure, but I think it does raise a good question.

Absolutely agree with you, CD.

Had the hands-on happened earlier, OR - as Terry said - had the DM gotten some non-onboard inflation going (lift bag, other diver's wing, whatever) earlier - could have been a different outcome.

But given the specific set of circumstances posted, ('passing through 140' and falling' - hypothetical?,) the response time for a diver on a single aluminum 80 with elevated respiratory rate and a non-cooperative victim is going to be compressed.

It certainly could be all the fault of an ill-trained DM.

But, given what (little) I think I understand about the circumstances, I would be reluctant to level those charges just yet.

FWIW. YMMV.

Doc

 

[Doc Intrepid]

Double post.