Bad air

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This is the advice of a beginner, but I would think that any of the air coming from an electric-powered compressor would be pretty clean, however something can always happen. On a fuel powered compressor, however, it can be possible as the byproduct of the fuel being converted into power is carbon dioxide. Still, I really don't know if a CO2 detector is useful for an electric compressor, where it might be useful with a fuel powered compressor.
 
...a few years ago, I spent a week in Akumal for a cavern/cave class, and my LDS who ran the trip said one reason he selected 'Villa De La Rosa' for us to stay/base out of was because they used ELECTRIC compressors...he refused to have anything to do with any resort that used fossil fuel powered compressors.

Karl
 
Thanks yet again, Swamp Diver. Wow...!
I'll take the role of devil's advocate here and question the logic of CO testing. This isn't to say that CO isn't a real risk. It is, but with all due respect to Dandy Don and others, how would you implement a testing program? (Don is right; filling stations should do this, but how would you know if they did or didn't).
Here's an approach...
> wouldn't it be nice if tropical operators took pride in their work and bragged about their safety standards, rather than pretending no problems exist?
> like the better US Ops, displayed their quarterly air test results?
> invited customers to tour their compressor room, see the inline CO tester and its maintenance schedule?
> admitted that real risks exist but show what they are doing to eliminate them....?
Would you test every tank? Would you also verify the Oxygen percentage of air fills, in case a EAN 36 fill got mixed in? Would you turn tanks over & shake to test for loose debris which could clog your regs filter? At some point you have to prioritize risks & focus on the most real ones first. If you try to address EVERY possible risk, you'll get distracted & miss critical ones. You need to have faith in systems (and in some cases to verify adherence to those systems) to protect you from risk.
Faith? When the usual response is "We've not had anyone die yet." I know I'm going to die someday, but I'd rather not play roulette with such a cavalier attitude that the Op could address for pennies.
I'm curious as to how many readers of this thread, who have oil or gas heat, own or will buy CO detectors for their homes where the threat of CO poisoning is much greater. In a study years ago, folks were asked about safety fears. It turns out that the perveived fears when ranked are almost directly opposite actual risks ranked statistically.
Got a CO tester in my bedroom, smoke alarm there and in kitchen, 4 extinguishers, landline and cell phones both always operational for 911 calls. How about you? Got any of those or living on faith?
Again, I'm only being the devil's advocate here, and don't want to trivialize the CO risk, just trying to inject a sense of proportion.
Thank you.
This is the advice of a beginner, but I would think that any of the air coming from an electric-powered compressor would be pretty clean, however something can always happen. On a fuel powered compressor, however, it can be possible as the byproduct of the fuel being converted into power is carbon dioxide. Still, I really don't know if a CO2 detector is useful for an electric compressor, where it might be useful with a fuel powered compressor.
Electric compressors have less risks, but risks still exist. Again, pennies to test. Or a buck a tank if I have to do it myself with my own tester.
 
I'll take the role of devil's advocate here and question the logic of CO testing. This isn't to say that CO isn't a real risk. It is, but with all due respect to Dandy Don and others, how would you implement a testing program? (Don is right; filling stations should do this, but how would you know if they did or didn't).

Would you test every tank? Would you also verify the Oxygen percentage of air fills, in case a EAN 36 fill got mixed in? Would you turn tanks over & shake to test for loose debris which could clog your regs filter? At some point you have to prioritize risks & focus on the most real ones first. If you try to address EVERY possible risk, you'll get distracted & miss critical ones. You need to have faith in systems (and in some cases to verify adherence to those systems) to protect you from risk.

I'm curious as to how many readers of this thread, who have oil or gas heat, own or will buy CO detectors for their homes where the threat of CO poisoning is much greater. In a study years ago, folks were asked about safety fears. It turns out that the perveived fears when ranked are almost directly opposite actual risks ranked statistically.

Again, I'm only being the devil's advocate here, and don't want to trivialize the CO risk, just trying to inject a sense of proportion.

Good questions and we always need a devil's advocate ;)

The problem with CO as compared with some of the other contaminants is it is odorless, tasteless, and irritantless and has very high inhalational toxicity particularly as the partial pressure increases with depth. While smelling one's air is always a good idea it is not going to detect low levels of carbon monoxide which may not present a problem at 1 atm, but in the sensitive diver will cause injury at depth.

I noticed on the CO-Cop web site under FAQ's that this lab states about 0.1% of samples they receive are at "dangerous levels" as opposed to the same lab which also reports in the DAN article a 3 percent failure rate for CO contamination at the 10 ppm CGA Grade E cutoff. So we likely have about 3 percent of fills which may have CO in the lower 10 to 30 ppm range, but every one in a thousand samples taken may have a level > 50 ppm which can kill you if at sufficient depth, exertion levels, smoking beforehand, etc. I suspect the distribution is not even geographically and there is a much higher frequency of contamination at the tropical dive destinations due to the high ambient heat.

I don't know about you but if someone told me that dive air has a failure rate of 0.1 percent for carbon monoxide at "dangerous levels" and that contaminant is undetectable using our normal human senses I am quite sure I would not want to play with a one in a thousand odds underwater as at some point I could be the unlucky one. In order therefore to identify that one in a thousand sample and reduce this exposure risk to as low a level as possible some sort of reliable, cost-effective, air quality testing program must be instituted by the fill station selling the diver his or her compressed breathing air .

We already have a recognized testing program advocated by PADI which is to test air quality on a quarterly basis. The problem is the resorts and operators are not following the guidelines and that places you and I at risk. If we supplemented this quarterly testing with real-time CO monitoring then the risk of contaminated air, in particular that one in a thousand potentially lethal risk from CO, could be reduced to close to zero.

As for cost of an air quality monitoring program it is not at all that onerous for a well run liveaboard, resort, or dive shop. Quarterly testing by one of the four labs will cost between $300 and $400 dollars a year. This will monitor for less frequently occurring or problematic contaminants such as oil mist, CO2, water, and volatile hydrocarbons. The cost of a real-time compressor CO monitor from Analox is only $600 so the capital cost is nothing compared to other costs in running the business. Every two years a new sensor must be purchased for $150. So for about $500 a year a reliable testing program can be had which would reduce the CO exposure risk to zero.

If PADI and the other training agencies won't enforce their own guidelines then it will be up to individual divers to pressure their operators to follow the guidelines. If they won't then personal detection devices is the way to go.
 
This is the advice of a beginner, but I would think that any of the air coming from an electric-powered compressor would be pretty clean, however something can always happen. On a fuel powered compressor, however, it can be possible as the byproduct of the fuel being converted into power is carbon dioxide. Still, I really don't know if a CO2 detector is useful for an electric compressor, where it might be useful with a fuel powered compressor.

Yes you would think with an electric compressor there would be less of a risk, but again if you speak to the labs receiving the compressed breathing air samples, and who often request compressor info in the case of CO test failures the bulk of the failures are from "electric" compressors. They are certainly far more common in the dive industry than gas powered compressors.

One must remember there are two sources for potential CO contamination in compressed breathing air. One is from an external intake source such as the exhaust from the gas engine driving the compressor, or not unheard of with an electric compressor someone driving up to the intake which contaminates the air. Boat engine exhaust is another common source.

The two incidents mentioned previously both involved electric compressors and there was no external CO source identified using reliable, recently calibrated electrochemical detectors. It is now well documented that the compressor oil itself in combination with a poorly installed electric compressor with a propensity to overheat can burn the oil (pyrolysis) and introduce significant amounts of CO into the air stream. If there is no catalyst in the filtration as is very typical in the tropics and many parts of the world (adds to filter's cost) then this CO will directly enter the storage banks or fills. There is a very good example of this CO production mechanism as known also "dieseling" in the peer-reviewed scientific literature from a large urban fire service which found widespread CO contamination originating from their "electric" compressors which were poorly installed and using a low flash point mineral compressor oil.

So yes a CO monitor on an electric compressor is a good idea particularly if there is no catalyst in the filter cartridge to convert potential CO to CO2.
 
One of the posters has brought up the availability of a Carbon Monoxide tester for air in scuba tanks. Is this a real problem? I haven't gotten any bad air so far even in Mexico. I would think that most OP's would carefully moniter their air supply so as not to get a bad reputation.:dork2:

Without giving away too much information because of ongoing litigation, yes. It doesn't happen very often, but when it does happen, it kills.
 
Thanks. I got a chuckle out of this objection...
Drunk driving is dangerous, too, but I don't carry a breathalizer with me.
Hehe, I do. Actually when I used to go honky-tonking, I kept a record of how many beers I'd had, times I had them, and from studies available easily - knew what my Blood Alcohol level should be. Matched closely to the cheap tester. Being on the road from Lubbock after midnight, officers look for people to check and I was pulled over a few times. I'd show them the times of each beer written with a sharpie in the palm of my hand, tell them how much I weighed, and that was usually it. Yes, this came about after surviving a related problem.

Some recent, related threads....

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ac...44-10-divers-injured-one-killed-maldives.html

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/236144-bad-air.html

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/236043-carbon-monoxide-tester.html

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/near-misses-lessons-learned/234389-bad-air.html

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/cr...ter-boats/207214-baani-explorer-maldives.html

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ba...er-ask-see-fill-air-quality-test-results.html
[c]
:11:[/c]
 
but I would think that any of the air coming from an electric-powered compressor would be pretty clean, however something can always happen. On a fuel powered compressor, however, it can be possible as the byproduct of the fuel being converted into power is carbon dioxide. Still, I really don't know if a CO2 detector is useful for an electric compressor, where it might be useful with a fuel powered compressor.

NO, No, No - If the filters on any compressor are bad, the air in the tank will only be as good as the air sucked into the compressor plus any oil contamination from the compressor no matter that dive type - electric/gas/diesel

CO absorbent, carbon, and alumna for air drying can be over worked on any poorly maintained compressor - I think this is what happened with the live aboard with the Russian that dies. Passengers stated that they had exhaust in the living quarters, so I would say that the compressor was also seeing high exhaust levels. This would have overwhelmed the CO to CO2 conversion chemistry quickly resulting in a high CP ppm level. At depth, the higher partial pressure of the CO would drive it into blood solution very quickly.

If I see 2 or more divers complaining about bad headaches right after a dive, the compressor filters need an immediate check and all air from that compressor is suspect till proved clean.
 

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