Attitudes Toward DIR Divers

[DiveLikeAMuppet]

Not really. I am saying two things:
1 - The "poor quality is more costly than high quality" works when quality is defined from a business perspective, that is, business performance + target customers' perceived quality
2 - PADI is a for-profit business, and to survive must prioritize business performance to any other type of quality

GUE is a for-profit business too, at least for instructors. A lot of them suffer because GUE misunderstood the CCR market, as an example.

And again, my point is that PADI cannot afford to prioritize this "quality" in the short term. The way you define quality, it requires a massive cultural change within the organization, and cultural changes require time, lots of time.

It’s just a different market segment. You cannot sell hardcore courses to most resort divers.

 

[boulderjohn]

Not really. I am saying two things:
1 - The "poor quality is more costly than high quality" works when quality is defined from a business perspective, that is, business performance + target customers' perceived quality
2 - PADI is a for-profit business, and to survive must prioritize business performance to any other type of quality

You are committing the either-or fallacy, assuming you must be driven either by 100% profit/0% quality or 100% quality/0% profit.

I have had many discussions with PADI officials over the years about quality issues, and I am happy to say a number of those discussions have led to changes in courses and standards. The people I talked to over the years have all been divers who care about diving, including at least 3 cave divers.

 

[crofrog]

GUE is a for-profit business too, at least for instructors. A lot of them suffer because GUE misunderstood the CCR market, as an example.

GUE itself is a 501(c)(3) non-profit. I'm not sure GUE misunderstood the CCR market as much as they took their time to figure it out and figure out how they wanted to see them used.

 

[ginti]

How is prioritizing performance over quality working out for Boeing? Just because a business is for-profit doesn't mean it can ignore quality. In fact if you ignore it for long enough you might find you don't have a business anymore.

Again, the quality you are speaking of is NOT the "absolute quality", but the quality perceived by the customers (plus eventual regulations).

McDonald's is pretty successful but the absolute quality of their product is low when compared with anything else. It's because the customers' perceived quality is a mix of "price/fast service/etc." and NOT quality.

What you call quality can or can not be part of the business performance. If it is part of, then a company optimizes for it (e.g. any aerospace company like Boeing operated in Western countries). Otherwise, they optimize for something else.

PADI has so far been more similar to fast food, fast fashion, or low-cost drone manufacturers than to Boeing. It has been their business model, and there have never been regulations to force it to increase the "training quality"

Cultural changes do not require a lot of time in relative terms, they require a lot of consistent energy. Certainly since @boulderjohn wrote the article in 2010 is more than enough time for cultural change. If enough people would have put the consistent energy into it.

I completely disagree. It depends on many many factors. In the case of PADI, they have to deal with a bunch of old instructors who do not want to change. So either they offboard them (and they can't in my view, and I know from internal sources also they think they can't), or they need to wait for them to retire. PADI is opting for the second one. I agree with them. This is a choice, and I can't prove you wrong, nor you can prove me wrong. Only trying both options will prove which one is better, and as I mentioned before this is just not going to happen

 

[The Chairman]

I think this thread has established the legacy agencies have a quality control and a standards problem,

It's always been more about the individual instructor than it has been about the agency used.

When I first started teaching "no kneeling" in 2005 (???), I was teaching NAUI. I was actually reported to NAUI for not having my OW divers kneeling while teaching in Alexander Springs. Nothing came from it, as it was not against any standard. The other instructor thought it was, as have many others. I was called a fraud and a liar for claiming I was doing this back then, only to have some of those embrace the idea. Lest I be accused of suggesting that I invented this concept, I actually got the idea from GUE. NASE tried to implement it, and I think that RAID has mostly succeeded in doing so. It's my humble opinion that the other agencies pay mostly lip service to trim and buoyancy. One or two instructors might get all worked up about it, but for the most part, classes are still being taught on the knees.

 

[ginti]

You are committing the either-or fallacy, assuming you must be driven either by 100% profit/0% quality or 100% quality/0% profit.

I have had many discussions with PADI officials over the years about quality issues, and I am happy to say a number of those discussions have led to changes in courses and standards. The people I talked to over the years have all been divers who care about diving, including at least 3 cave divers.

No, I am not committed to that fallacy. Indeed I said that PADI is improving because I think it is possible to do both. I also said it takes time.

The reasoning behind is quite articulated, and the only point of discussion would be how much time is needed for the change in my view.

But if you find any other hole in the reasoning, please let me know

 

[ginti]

GUE is a for-profit business too, at least for instructors. A lot of them suffer because GUE misunderstood the CCR market, as an example.


It’s just a different market segment. You cannot sell hardcore courses to most resort divers.

I know, and I said both of them well in my posts

 

[Blackcrusader]

It's always been more about the individual instructor than it has been about the agency used.
One or two instructors might get all worked up about it, but for the most part, classes are still being taught on the knees.

At the end of a dive came across this Asian PADI instructor teaching whatever this is... sorry you hear my laughing

 

[Chavodel8en]

"Tarps are for dumb red necks who like to take the dirt home wtih (sic) them to their trailers." ?

Lol, I dont agree with the name-calling and I dont live in a trailer, but I agree with him about tarps -- they dont work very well, pick up alot of dirt and sand. As much trouble as their worth.

 

[The Chairman]

Lol, I dont agree with the name-calling and I dont live in a trailer, but I agree with him about tarps -- they dont work very well, pick up alot of dirt and sand. As much trouble as their worth.

You're free to not use them. I used to suit up in my van, but I sold it. I will probably use those roll-up beach mats if/when needed from here on out.