Attitudes Toward DIR Divers

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I think a good reason for this delay can be illustrated in the response it all got on ScubaBoard. There was horrendous pushback against it from several people, including especially Andy Davis (DevonDiver on ScubaBoard and Scuba Tech Philippines). Andy's crusade against neutral buoyancy instruction was simply Herculean. He wrote over and over and over again that using this approach was a violation of PADI standards, and anyone doing it would be expelled. When we quoted PADI leaders, including the CEO and President, to refute him, he said those people only spoke their own opinions, and they were all wrong. (Seriously--he specifically said that any instructor who did what the PADI CEO and President said to do would be expelled.) I believe Andy's fervid opposition represents opposition from others around the world who have fought tooth and nail to impede progress.

I doubt Andy had any effect on the industry adopting neutrally buoyant instruction. And I'm skeptical about this Herculean effort. Please don't say look it up on scubaboard, as you said here: Failed CESA in OW

Let's try to understand the basic rules of logic.

If you say something exists, and I suggest that it does not exist, it is up to you to prove that it exists. What evidence can I possibly provide to show that something does not exist?

 

[Wibble]

Being fluffed up by the OW/AOW instructors "you will be qualified to dive anywhere" gives a false sense of safety.

We are not communicating.

You said PADI OW instruction says "you will be qualified to dive anywhere." I wrote that PADI teaches that you will need further training to dive in different conditions. In response, you wrote that you found it quite the shock to dive in more challenging climes than you were trained in. Yep. That's why PADI says you need further training to dive in those different conditions.

So you said you were not making up the quote. In that case, please say where you got it.

To be very clear, it was the instructors saying that to a know-nothing freshly minted OW diver with a handful of dives in a benign resort location.

Not the agency.

With hindsight it was a throwaway comment, but sometimes those get taken literally by their novice audience.

 

[Blackcrusader]

I do not recall my Jan 1986 Padi OW course really doing much on buoyancy. I do recall it being focused on when I started my BSAC courses in Brunei in 1986. Just recently a DM in Cebu was telling me how good the BSAC divers from the UK were with buoyancy and trim. He said SEA trained Padi OW divers really had poor buoyancy and trim.

For me the fact that PADI offers a peak buoyancy certificate just shows that the PADI OW course is lacking in the proper training on buoyancy and trim. I put this down to poor instruction and the fact the courses are compressed into a few days so vacation divers can become certified.

It's quite common for dive ops to offer a combined OW AOW and nitrox almost into a single course with the min 4 required dives to get the AOW.

 

[Barefoot_Lawyer]

I think this thread has established the legacy agencies have a quality control and a standards problem, and despite there being some really, really good instructors in it for the right reasons, there are also some really, really terrible instructors and/or shops that are cheating students out of what they deserve.

What are the odds that me, my wife, and my daughter all got pretty terrible instruction in 3 different decades and 2 different countries?

PS - despite loving the water, snorkeling any chance she can get, and swimming since she was 3 months old, my 16 year old daughter went on 3 dives post-certification and won’t dive anymore. It breaks my heart, and it is because she doesn’t feel confident in her abilities. A big part of me taking Fundies was because I want to be able to help her dive again, and be the teammate she deserves, not the distracted, task loaded $h!+show my training (from 3 different legacy agencies) vomited upon this earth.

 

[rongoodman]

It wasn't that I didn't understand the physics principles, it was that none of that was in muscle memory yet, and there was so much going on during those dives that I couldn't think straight--I felt overloaded.

Ed Hayes used to say that you only have about ten working brain cells during a dive, so use them wisely.

 

[eightytwenty]

I just use a 6’x8’ tarp that I got at Harbor Freight for less than $10.

Can anybody find that George Irvine quote about tarps? One of the best hills he's chosen to die on imo.

 

[nadwidny]

Just to educate people on the thread.

Andrew Georgitsis was was removed from GUE by the QC board in September of 2005:



None of what you're described is what I've experienced in my GUE classes, or from anyone, employees or otherwise at Extreme Exposure, Halcyon or any of the GUE community groups.

I was around AG at the time. I helped out filming students for review on the Fundies courses in Calgary he was doing. What they described about the reasons for him getting the boot was what I saw. He didn't skimp on the course but he did bad mouth GUE HQ people and some of the students during the courses. He struck me as someone who thought he was smarter than everyone else and wanted everyone to know it.

Obviously he wasn't smart enough to know you don't badmouth the heads of the company and their friends and expect no repercussions. I was working one of the last, if not the last, Fundies he did in August of 2005. He knew it was coming when GI3 started back up on the internets attacking him in George's lovable way just a week or two prior. This was after GI3 had dropped off the scene.

 

[rjack321]

I was around AG at the time. I helped out filming students for review on the Fundies courses in Calgary he was doing. What they described about the reasons for him getting the boot was what I saw. He didn't skimp on the course but he did bad mouth GUE HQ people and some of the students during the courses. He struck me as someone who thought he was smarter than everyone else and wanted everyone to know it.

Obviously he wasn't smart enough to know you don't badmouth the heads of the company and their friends and expect no repercussions. I was working one of the last, if not the last, Fundies he did in August of 2005. He knew it was coming when GI3 started back up on the internets attacking him in George's lovable way just a week or two prior. This was after GI3 had dropped off the scene.

Yeah this was my experience as well. I was in one of his last T1 courses in the Spring of 2005

 

[Wibble]

I think this thread has established the legacy agencies have a quality control and a standards problem, and despite there being some really, really good instructors in it for the right reasons, there are also some really, really terrible instructors and/or shops that are cheating students out of what they deserve.

What are the odds that me, my wife, and my daughter all got pretty terrible instruction in 3 different decades and 2 different countries?

PS - despite loving the water, snorkeling any chance she can get, and swimming since she was 3 months old, my 16 year old daughter went on 3 dives post-certification and won’t dive anymore. It breaks my heart, and it is because she doesn’t feel confident in her abilities. A big part of me taking Fundies was because I want to be able to help her dive again, and be the teammate she deserves, not the distracted, task loaded $h!+show my training (from 3 different legacy agencies) vomited upon this earth.

Maybe it's several things:

• Pressure on price especially in resort locations
• Pressure to get people through their basic courses to get them out diving
• Low expectations in benign locations

Maybe that is OK in a warm, clear, pretty location? After all, this approach gets people diving.

Obviously it's not OK from the skills perspective and "issues" with people not progressing

 

[Seepferdchencam]

Can anybody find that George Irvine quote about tarps? One of the best hills he's chosen to die on imo.

"Tarps are for dumb red necks who like to take the dirt home wtih (sic) them to their trailers." ?