Attitudes Toward DIR Divers

[crofrog]

Once again, if the dive shop itself is not affiliated with an agency, what good does it do to report it to an agency? Even if the shop is agency affiliated, what is going to happen to it? The worst is the agency drops it so it is no longer affiliated. So what? It can still have agency-affiliated instructors working for it. It can still tell those instructors to do it the way they want it done, agency standards be damned.

The very worst standards violation I ever saw was more than 20 years ago in Fiji, before I even thought of being an instructor. On our first two days of diving, our group had a single diver who was obviously a real beginner. On each dive he did, he ran low on air early and was sent to the surface on his own by the DM. During the surface interval on the second day, he overate and opted not to do the dive. When we got back to the dock, he was greeted by a man who it turned out was his OW instructor. Those four dives, including the one he didn't do and on which he never performed a single skill, were his four certification dives! I wrote to PADI, and I got a reply explaining that the dive shop itself had no affiliation with PADI, so there was nothing they could do about it. They could only discipline the instructor. So the shop lost an instructor. No problem. Time to get another one.

This entire attitude just reeks of resignation. I don't share your opinion that it is intractable.

 

[Kendall Raine]

Yes, PADI can revoke PADI affiliation for an affiliated shop that does not meet standards. It has done that, and it puts that notice on its web page. That is all it can do.

Thank you. I guess that brings up the question of affiliated shop standards. Do the standards to be met by an affiliated shop extend to the behavior (i.e. teaching to PADI standards) by the instructor? If not, there seems to be a two sided "triangle" whereby any violation of teaching standards is a matter between PADI and the instructor, but not implicating the shop. Is that right? As such, if the PADI affiliated shop leans on the instructor to cut corners on teaching, and the instructor complies, the shop is nevertheless held harmless by PADI. If so, the instructor is really treated (in this "triangle") as an independent contractor of the shop/PADI, not an employee of the shop. Have I got it right?

 

[Lorenzoid]

This is very common, and I have written about it in the past. I have called it "learned helplessness." A few dive trips like that and you will have forgotten everything you learned about being independent. . . .

I think my "helplessness" was "learned" on the last day of my OW course, though the vacation diving culture certainly did notthing to increase my confidence. If I had been asked to come back tomorrow and go diving in the same place on the same boat, without the instructor, I would have said I don't feel prepared for that.

 

[tursiops]

If so, the instructor is really treated (in this "triangle") as an independent contractor of the shop/PADI, not an employee of the shop. Have I got it right?

This is confusing. The instructor is one or the other; it is not a decision made by PADI or anyone else.

 

[The Chairman]

This entire attitude just reeks of resignation. I don't share your opinion that it is intractable.

That's a great way of putting it. Reading it made me uneasy, but I just couldn't put my finger on why. So many instructors defend the way their agency does things, even when it's indefensible.

Do the standards to be met by an affiliated shop extend to the behavior (i.e. teaching to PADI standards) by the instructor?

They only need to discard the instructor to make things right, and they often do. There are far more instructors than there are real opportunities to work as an instructor. They are treated as being disposable. Instructor mills are encouraged as a way for dive ops to make ends meet. "Living the dream!"

If I had been asked to come back tomorrow and go diving in the same place, without the instructor, I would have said I don't feel prepared for that.

It's a shame. We complain about diver retention, yet little is done to remove the fear from diving. Most of that comes from poor trim and buoyancy. You can't enjoy your dive if you're stressed about your position in the water column.

This is confusing. The instructor is one or the other; it is not a decision made by PADI or anyone else.

It is confusing, and it's often hard to figure out. Many shops treat instructors as employees and yet skirt the law and taxes by paying them as independent contractors.

 

[crofrog]

It's a shame. We complain about diver retention, yet little is done to remove the fear from diving. Most of that comes from poor trim and buoyancy. You can't enjoy your dive if you're stressed about your position in the water column.

Completely agree. Imagine how much more diving there would be if most of the people who were certified kept diving. I think a lot of people have a dive where they were pretty uncomfortable and maybe a little scared and then they don't want to dive again. I know I have.

It is confusing, and it's often hard to figure out. Many shops treat instructors as employees and yet skirt the law and taxes by paying them as independent contractors

I'm not a tax expert, but I'm curious how the final rule making for FLSA is going to impact that.

 

[Lorenzoid]

It's a shame. We complain about diver retention, yet little is done to remove the fear from diving. Most of that comes from poor trim and buoyancy. You can't enjoy your dive if you're stressed about your position in the water column.

Trim and buoyancy? Heck, I vividly recall on the last dive of the OW course not being sure about which button was to add gas, which button was to release gas, and whether you add or you dump when you descend or when you ascend .... It wasn't that I didn't understand the physics principles, it was that none of that was in muscle memory yet, and there was so much going on during those dives that I couldn't think straight--I felt overloaded. And that's the dive itself--there was also the pre-dive, and I don't think I could have assembled the gear myself the next day or gone through the pre-dive check. It sounds impossible now--it's all so simple, right?--but I recall at the time it felt overwhelming. I was not ready to dive on my own.

 

[Kendall Raine]

This is confusing. The instructor is one or the other; it is not a decision made by PADI or anyone else.

Sorry for the confusion. Perhaps I don't understand. I'm trying to figure out the role of PADI.

It seems that if the shop is not affiliated with PADI, there is no relationship between the shop and PADI. Right?

If the shop is affiliated, the shop must meet standards under the affiliate relationship (your point above).

Question: do those standards extend to/prescribe the behavior of the instructor? Does the answer depend on whether the instructor is an employee of the affiliated shop or simply and independent contractor to the shop? For clarity, if an employee instructor of an affiliated shop violates PADI standards (e.g. gives answers to an exam/skips a skill, whatever) is that a violation of affiliate standards? What if the instructor is not an employee of the affiliated shop?

Thanks,

 

[tursiops]

Sorry for the confusion. Perhaps I don't understand. I'm trying to figure out the role of PADI.

It seems that if the shop is not affiliated with PADI, there is no relationship between the shop and PADI. Right?

If the shop is affiliated, the shop must meet standards under the affiliate relationship (your point above).

Question: do those standards extend to/prescribe the behavior of the instructor? Does the answer depend on whether the instructor is an employee of the affiliated shop or simply and independent contractor to the shop? For clarity, if an employee instructor of an affiliated shop violates PADI standards (e.g. gives answers to an exam/skips a skill, whatever) is that a violation of affiliate standards? What if the instructor is not an employee of the affiliated shop?

Thanks,

I don't think it makes any difference....employee or contractor. It is still the affiliated shop in the middle, and PADI comes down on them. But all they can do is dump the shop and/or the instructor, which they do routinely and post the results in their Underwater Journal for all to see.

 

[boulderjohn]

If so, the instructor is really treated (in this "triangle") as an independent contractor of the shop/PADI, not an employee of the shop. Have I got it right?

The instructor is certified by PADI, but the instructor does not work for PADI. The instructor either works for the shop or is independent. Whether the instructor is an independent contractor working for the shop or an employee working for the shop is a technical matter related to labor law; in neither case does the instructor work for PADI. When students sign a liability waiver, they are required to sign off that they understand that. If the instructor screws up, then PADI can expel the instructor or apply some lesser penalty. If the shop is PADI affiliated and it is determined that they violated standard, the PADI can deal with that as well.