Article on Death In Ginnie Springs

[Omisson]

That isn't bashing..it's historical fact. Why did the colonists leave England? Why did Europeans depart thier respective countries in mass quantities TWICE in the last 150 years?

I'm aware that there are countries in Europe that are a bit more level headed than say France, Spain, Italy etc...but the stereotype goes both ways. In the US we have major differences in societal norms between different states. Gian would probably feel right at home in California or New York...conversely he would fell highly out of place in Alabama or Tennessee.

Remember that that quote you used from me was in response to gian indicating that the rest of the entire world would have treated that scenario as a crime scene...which is total horse****.

NY Votes no!

 

[scagrotto]

In the U.S. I think including for cave diving you require some kind of prior agreement with the Police before you even touch a body

I'll tell you what. In the very unlikely event that we ever dive together, if you have a mishap and I think there's even a tiny chance you might be dead I'll leave the body for the police. After all, I'm not a doctor so I can't pronounce you alive.

Having said that, here I have no doubt it was user/team error.

But there was never a proper investigation. How could you be so stupid as to have reached the same conclusion as the police?

 

[gianaameri]

I'll tell you what. In the very unlikely event that we ever dive together, if you have a mishap and I think there's even a tiny chance you might be dead I'll leave the body for the police. After all, I'm not a doctor so I can't pronounce you alive.

You bring up (albeit in a funny way) an interesting point worth addressing as part of the learning process/accident analysis in this forum/thread.

Rather than me trying to explain/address the issue you raise, relevant in this incident, as well in any incident more generally, involving diving, including one in which I may need to be rescued (hopefully not by you) or recovered dead (hopefully not), here is some relevant info. for you learning experience:

http://www.daneurope.org/c/document...8f3-a745-480b-9549-d9fc8bbbd535&groupId=10103

 

[clownfishsydney]

I think that what a lot of people are saying is that the procedure followed is not one that they and others consider appropriate. In Australia for example, all deaths that are not explainable (say from obvious old age, people sick with serious illness) get investigated, normally by the police. In some cases, the investigation is done by a specialist group, sometimes without police involvement. For example, aircraft accidents where someone dies is done by Australian Transport Safety Bureau. In the US, parachuting accidents by the US Parachuting Association. For scuba in Australia, police do it as there is no organisation. They carry this out on behalf of the Coroner.

However, in the case of diving accidents, in most of the US it seems no-one investigates as to the cause of the accident.

I will agree that in most cases, police are not suited to investigating, as shown by many failed investigates (eg Tina Watson death). Even when they use police divers as experts, their expertise is not in the type of diving we as recreational divers do, let alone those dives done by cave divers or "tec" divers.

To me, the fact that the police did not independently check his gear and tanks is not an adequate investigation, but that is just my view. It seems pretty obvious what happened and why, but this assumes that everything that has been made public is correct and nothing is missing.

I really wish that each country had an organisation that would investigate independently all scuba diving accidents and publish what happened so that we can learn from it. I know of at least four diving deaths in Australia in the past few years where nothing has come out about what happened. We know that the people who died made mistakes, but so far it is all rumour and no facts.

 

[boulderjohn]

However, in the case of diving accidents, in most of the US it seems no-one investigates as to the cause of the accident.

That is not true. It depends upon the circumstances. If the reason for the incident is patently obvious, there is no reason to investigate. If not, then there will be an investigation.

Last year, I conducted a thorough analysis of the facts surrounding another cave death in the same system in which this one occurred. The deceased was found floating at the entrance/exit of the cave. There was no clear reason for that to have happened, and the closest thing to a witness was the one who found the body. In that case, all equipment was taken in an analyzed.

Gian gave an example for comparison of finding someone dead with a gun in his hand and assuming it was suicide. No, that wold not be done. An analysis would be made to confirm it. On the other hand, if 5 people saw the guy point the gun to his head and pull the trigger while screaming, "I can't take it any more," then things would be different.

I will agree that in most cases, police are not suited to investigating, as shown by many failed investigates (eg Tina Watson death). Even when they use police divers as experts, their expertise is not in the type of diving we as recreational divers do, let alone those dives done by cave divers or "tec" divers.

To me, the fact that the police did not independently check his gear and tanks is not an adequate investigation, but that is just my view. It seems pretty obvious what happened and why, but this assumes that everything that has been made public is correct and nothing is missing.

And can anyone think of a scenario in which anyone would have a motive to spread incorrect information?

I really wish that each country had an organisation that would investigate independently all scuba diving accidents and publish what happened so that we can learn from it. I know of at least four diving deaths in Australia in the past few years where nothing has come out about what happened. We know that the people who died made mistakes, but so far it is all rumour and no facts.

As I have said for now the third time in this thread, Florida has such an organization, the IUCRR. These divers are highly skilled and knowledgeable. They have been thoroughly trained in rescue techniques and recovery techniques. They have been trained on proper procedures for gear recovery and analysis for purpose of investigation. The police rely upon them for this work. They used to publish the results of their investigations, and if you go to their web site, you will see those old reports. They do not publish the reports any more because they have been advised by legal counsel to stop doing that for fear of a lawsuit from the estate for details like disclosing medical conditions. (There was a discussion about this on the Cave Divers Forum about a year ago.) today they file their report with the police, and it becomes part of the official work on the case. You can read their reports by filing a Freedom of Information request with the local police.

 

[kafkaland]

I get from this thread that there is a desire for a more systematic approach to investigating diving accidents in the US. Absent a reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed, it's not the police's job, and other organizations doing it like DAN and IUCRR tend to lack resources, or face other impediments to do a full investigation and publish the results. Which is a shame, as we can certainly learn from thorough, systematic accident investigations.

The closest model for such investigations I can think of is what the alpine clubs in Europe do with mountain accidents. The German Alpine Club runs a sophisticated operation that investigates every accident they become aware of, and local law enforcement and rescue units usually call them in to help. They run a sophisticated lab that tests mountaineering gear, better than any police lab. And they encourage everyone to send in failed safety-critical gear after near-misses that law enforcement would never know of, to work with manufacturers to improve safety, warn the public if necessary, and improve instructor training. And they publish a detailed report every year.

I don't see any agency in the US that has the capacity and will to do this for diving, though, nor do I have any idea of how to cut through legal impediments to publishing investigation reports.

 

[abnfrog]

This would be fine for me:

ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION

1. ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION
The forum recommends that training agencies provide rebreather divers with a simple list of instructions that will mitigate common errors in evidence preservation after a serious incident or rebreather fatality.
– These instructions will be developed under the auspices of the Undersea and Hyperbaric Medical Society Diving Committee in consultation with the relevant RF3 presenters.
2. ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION
The forum endorses the concept of a widely notified centralized “on-call” consultation service to help investigators in avoiding errors or omissions in the early stages of a rebreather accident investigation, and to facilitate referral to expert investigative services.
3. ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION
The forum recommends that in investigating a rebreather fatality the principal accident investigator invite the manufacturer of the incident rebreather (or other relevant equipment) to assist with its evaluation (including the crucial task of data download) as early as is practicable.
4. ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION
The forum endorses the DAN worldwide initiative to provide a means of on-line incident reporting with subsequent analysis and publication of incident root causes.

Source: RF3.0 (rebreather or OC is the same, still "life-support" diving equipment, computers, electronics, gases, pPO2, WOB, human error, team errors, procedural errors...).

HEARS THE DEAL ........IF THE COPS SAY THERES NO F\IN CRIME THATS THE END OF IT (thats ther their job as exsperts ) they are NOT concerned if he died by some other situation ...that up to the designated expert witness....and your not one pal

 

[boulderjohn]

I get from this thread that there is a desire for a more systematic approach to investigating diving accidents in the US. Absent a reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed, it's not the police's job, and other organizations doing it like DAN and IUCRR tend to lack resources, or face other impediments to do a full investigation and publish the results. Which is a shame, as we can certainly learn from thorough, systematic accident investigations.
...
I don't see any agency in the US that has the capacity and will to do this for diving, though, nor do I have any idea of how to cut through legal impediments to publishing investigation reports.

I am currently working on a report of an incident that may shed light on the problems inherent in this situation. The incident was a near fatality, but fortunately no one died. From the material I have gathered, there could be a question about the appropriateness of the actions of one of the individuals involved. If I publish the full details, some people might be critical of that individual. He might not like it. He might argue that my description of the incident was inaccurate and unfairly tarnished his reputation. I could be facing a lawsuit. There are also local politics in play. Some people are reluctant to talk because they are afraid that some people might use information in the report to attack them. That is very much on my mind as I toy with the wording.

If I am facing a lawsuit, the organization that publishes it would be included. That has to be on their minds as well. If the threat looks too real, they may decide to stop publishing such reports altogether, just as the IUCRR has done.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

I think that what a lot of people are saying is that the procedure followed is not one that they and others consider appropriate. In Australia for example, all deaths that are not explainable (say from obvious old age, people sick with serious illness)

This does not follow: just because they're obviously old and/or sick with a fatal illness does not mean someone/something else couldn't have caused their deaths. I mean, that's what the OP and Giann's position should be, because you can't get much more explainable than a diver suffering a tox event breathing 98%O2 for an extended swim below 20'.

The contention here is not that there was no investigation, but that whatever/whoever was involved shouldn't have been satisfactory to TPTB because all the testing and interviews were completed informally (albeit under police observation). However, when the obvious stuff shows such a clear case of accidental death, that's as far as the investigation needs to go...which apparently even police in Australia have figured out.

Or maybe we're just missing a bunch of stealthy murders of old/sick Aussies?

 

[Storker]

maybe we're just missing a bunch of stealthy murders of old/sick Aussies?

Aussies I can understand. If it'd been Kiwis, I'd be more skeptical.