Article on Death In Ginnie Springs

[Six Feet Under]

Newsflash: we aren't talking about the EU. A lot of European police don't carry guns, either...

 

[tomfcrist]

Additional news flash...unlike in Europe, Americans are considered responsible for their own actions. The authorities realize that a shoe manufacturer is not liable for a person tripping over their own feet.
Our ancestors left Europe so that we wouldn't have to submit to the idiocracy that runs so rampant there. Although there is a good deal of it here these days, I am thankful that it obviously isn't as bad as it is in Europe.

 

[Storker]

Additional news flash...unlike in Europe, Americans are considered responsible for their own actions. The authorities realize that a shoe manufacturer is not liable for a person tripping over their own feet.

1: That's a pretty broad brush you're painting with, can I borrow it the next time I have to paint my house? I'd probably need only one stroke on each of the walls.
2: Should I mention in which country there's the most litigations caused by people not wanting to take responsibility for their own actions? No, probably not. We would't like that this thread turned into another Euro vs 'murrica bashfest, would we.?
3: I've got news for you: Europe consists of many sovereign nations, each with their own justice system. Shocking, isn't it?
4: I'm European, and I've never heard about any police monopoly on recovering bodies after normal fatalities.

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[gianaameri]

1:4: I'm European, and I've never heard about any police monopoly on recovering bodies after normal fatalities.

The good thing about forums like this is that if we keep an open mind and behave "normal" we can actually learn something new from each other.

Anonymity unfortunately brings about the worst in some people and the same on Facebook are much better behaved.

In the U.S. I think including for cave diving you require some kind of prior agreement with the Police before you even touch a body and, possibly, you require some special training, also in agreement with the Police, and good insurance (Accident and Public Liability) is always advisable.

In Europe, it depends on each country though, some places the Police is NOT allowed to grant any civilian permission to recover bodies in a diving accident (this is codified in Law).

 

[FinnMom]

The authorities realize that a shoe manufacturer is not liable for a person tripping over their own feet.

Maybe the authorities, but the insurance companies and other interested parities often make things much more restricted in the home of the free (my native home BTW) than in Europe. For example: I bought 2 S10 cameras once upon a time. The one purchased in Europe one had about 14 sentences of warnings. The USA-purchased one had 5 pages of warnings: do not put batteries in mouth, do not cut the batteries open, do not feed batteries to pets or livestock... etc. etc. I'm not kidding, we read those pages out loud to several European friends and laughed ourselves to tears.

This is also why swimming halls here commonly have diving boards, even high dives while they have become a rarity in the USA. But then again you may know more than I do about both locations: I've only lived in both about 25yrs per place. I could cite more examples but we are far enough off the subject of the thread already. But freedom would be a bit more pure if there were more freedom from the risks of lawsuits and liability. Europe is pretty good about that.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Most police dive teams here are not equipped or qualified to do recoveries in overheads, deep water, or they actually rely on volunteers who may or may not get sworn in as some type of reserve officer. Rural locations often rely on volunteer fire dept divers. Some of whom have been trained by unscrupulous shops and instructors looking to make a buck. The dept gets some kind of grant, the shop sells them recreational gear and accessories completely unsuited for PSD diving. They then sucker them into ow, aow, rescue, and maybe a crap search and recovery course (again recreational with no actual PSD component ) and then tell them "congratulations, you are now a PSD dive team!".

 

[boulderjohn]

When there is an accident involving injury or fatality (road-accidents come to mind), it is the Police responsibility and obligation in all countries I have been to arrive promptly at the scene and investigate in accordance to exact procedures.

Same with diving accidents in many countries I have visited. In some, it is clearly stated in the legislation that a body recovery in a diving accident can only be effected by the Police (a rescue is different insofar if the buddy is not dead in some countries you actually do have the legal obligation as a buddy to effect rescue).

Exact procedures were followed in this case. Where this event happened, any time there is a cave diving death, an organization of specially trained divers is called in to recover the body and perform an analysis. The police let them do the work and then accept their report. This organization is called the IUCRR. I posted the link earlier. You apparently were not interested.

 

[tomfcrist]

Storker, gian and Finn....

You realize that civil liability and assumption of negligence is far different and a completely different process than criminal justice right??? The police in the USA do not investigate civil matters. There was nothing criminal here...which if you read my post you will see that I was responding to the assumption that somehow the local police or the FBI should be investigating this.

As far as Europe being separated into sovereign countries...no ****. I wonder why you all use the same money these days? Or why Interpol was mentioned earlier? Surely your countries are sovereign.
I'm not saying that the USA has the best system in place to protect against civil lawsuits, but at least we aren't going to be investigated by the police every time a friend dies.

Legit question: If in some areas only the police are by law allowed to recover a body, and your buddy has a heart attack on a dive, are you telling me you would just leave your buddy on the bottom? Or inside a cave/wreck?

 

[Storker]

As far as Europe being separated into sovereign countries...no ****. I wonder why you all use the same money these days?

We do? Wow. I must have missed the memo about Denmark, Sweden, UK and the non-EU countries joining the EMU. When did that happen?

Legit question: If in some areas only the police are by law allowed to recover a body, and your buddy has a heart attack on a dive, are you telling me you would just leave your buddy on the bottom? Or inside a cave/wreck?

You nailed it. "If". 'Cause I've never heard of a regulation like that, and I suspect that Spain is the only country with such laws. Perhaps also France, what do I know?

What is a fact, though, is that in Norway body recovery is a job for the fire and rescue brigade, because they have personnel who are properly trained for such jobs. The police stay away from that job because they don't have that competence available.



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[shoredivr]

And sometimes, in Europe, body recovery in a cave is beyond the ability of the police. And cave divers effect the recovery. G seems to have forgotten his participation in this thread:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ac...a-norway-body-recovery-operation-started.html

From that thread, we find that in a previous fatality in 2006 in that cave system "Norwegian HES regulations do not allow the risk associated with dives like the ones needed to recover Ståle's body (even if some of the divers at Oslo fire and rescue brigade had experience in cave diving and had done penetration(?) dives to recover bodies from the Rocknes wreck in 2001), so a British team was asked to provide the deep diving for recovery of the body. Oslo fire and rescue brigade provided support divers for the operation."


Yes, Norway is not an EU member but cooperates with that entity Norway and the EU

Yes, Norwegian police cooperate with the police forces of the EU countries Inside on the Outside: Norway and Police Cooperation in the EU | Synn