article on dead regulator removing?

[Patoux01]

Hey guys,

I remember someone mentionning changes from I think the US Navy about removing a dead regulator from your mouth, stating that it shouldn't be done.
I also recall it being backed up by a whole article about the reflex of inhaling (mammal reflex or something like that?) when in need of air and that a regulator would give more protection than nothing for your airways. Anyone remembering that article and could drop me a link?

Cheers

 

[RJP]

Don't recall any reference for it or anything specific from USN, but I've always told students "Don't remove a non-working reg from your mouth until you have something better to replace it with."

The idea being that if you should try to inhale with a reg in your mouth you'll get nothing - rather than lungs full of water - just makes sense. Plus, if in an OOA emergency, as you ascend, and the ambient pressure drops, you may actually get a breath. Add possible entanglement with a reg just flopping around as another reason to keep it in your mouth.

Nothing but upside to keeping the reg in place. Nothing but downside to removing it.

 

[Patoux01]

Yes I know that. But then there's the French. CESA from 20m (60 feet) with no regulator in, as a "because if you are out of air, that's how you would do as an instructor" and "it shows you are confident".
And I thought someone had posted something from a "higher source" (army, research, whatever). To some people, common sense is not sufficient.

 

[RJP]

Yes I know that. But then there's the French. CESA from 20m (60 feet) with no regulator in, as a "because if you are out of air, that's how you would do as an instructor" and "it shows you are confident".

Arrogant to the point of stupidity... vive la France!

 

[knotical]

Yes I know that. But then there's the French. CESA from 20m (60 feet) with no regulator in, as a "because if you are out of air, that's how you would do as an instructor" and "it shows you are confident".
And I thought someone had posted something from a "higher source" (army, research, whatever). To some people, common sense is not sufficient.

Could you provide a source for the information about the French? FFESSM is a CMAS federation, and CMAS training standards keep the regulator in the mouth during emergency ascents. Not sure about other training agencies in France.

 

[Patoux01]

There's a french version of the standards available here
If you look at page 11 it states
"a la demande du formateur, enlever l’embout sans délai et le garder à la main", which translates to "at the signal of the instructor, remove the regulator without delay and keep it in hand"
That's for the french (real) 3* diver and not their rubbish level 3 diver. The candidate goes from 20m to 3m, where he is expected to stop, check surroundings, then put regulator back in.

I believe that for the lower levels they keep the regulator in and arent as long, can't find a source stating otherwise.


No idea if there's any english version of it... can't find it if it's out there.

---------- Post added June 19th, 2015 at 04:06 PM ----------

Would you happen to have a link to the CMAS standards about CESA ? Can't seem to find it.

---------- Post added June 19th, 2015 at 04:23 PM ----------

Found this publication, but it's really old. If anyone has something more recent... Emergency Ascent Training.

 

[DuboisP]

Arrogant to the point of stupidity... vive la France!

Patoux01 is not arrogant, he's curious
we know him on a french diver forum.

sometimes good, sometimes wrong.
but definitively interested.
he has a long way to do.

 

[RJP]

Patoux01 is not arrogant, he's curious
we know him on a french diver forum.

sometimes good, sometimes wrong.
but definitively interested.
he has a long way to do.

I wasn't saying HE was... rather whatever the source of the "this shows confidence" line.

 

[Frosty]

There's a french version of the standards available here
If you look at page 11 it states
"a la demande du formateur, enlever l’embout sans délai et le garder à la main", which translates to "at the signal of the instructor, remove the regulator without delay and keep it in hand"
That's for the french (real) 3* diver and not their rubbish level 3 diver. The candidate goes from 20m to 3m, where he is expected to stop, check surroundings, then put regulator back in.

I believe that for the lower levels they keep the regulator in and arent as long, can't find a source stating otherwise.


No idea if there's any english version of it... can't find it if it's out there.

---------- Post added June 19th, 2015 at 04:06 PM ----------

Would you happen to have a link to the CMAS standards about CESA ? Can't seem to find it.

---------- Post added June 19th, 2015 at 04:23 PM ----------

Found this publication, but it's really old. If anyone has something more recent... Emergency Ascent Training.

mate --to be clear though. A Cmas level 3 diver in training is from what Ive seen close to Padi Divemaster training. So they are using a different methodology to Padi to get the same effect--ie task load.
What you seemed to be saying in your OP was that CMAS Level 1 divers in training were expected to do that drill. Your qualification of that statement makes more sense

 

[Diver0001]

Yes I know that. But then there's the French. CESA from 20m (60 feet) with no regulator in, as a "because if you are out of air, that's how you would do as an instructor" and "it shows you are confident".
And I thought someone had posted something from a "higher source" (army, research, whatever). To some people, common sense is not sufficient.

Seems to me that keeping the regulator in place is taught almost universally with the possible exception of certain clubs and instructors. This was agreed upon by the biggest training agencies (except CMAS) in 1977 and all of the little agencies will certainly have followed this guideline.

I'm not a CMAS instructor but as far as I know CMAS standards didn't used to include a CESA at all and I'm not sure if they do now. If there is, then it was added under pressure from the EU to bring their standards in line with the WRSTC. What you've heard about are called (around where I live) a "stijgproef" or in English "ascent trial". It's a skill to make a long ascent in CESA style but it's not presented as an "emergency ascent" as they only ascend to 3m under the surface and then stop.

To me it comes across more as either a penis measuring contest or as a filter/gateway to more advanced training. To be sure you'd have to ask a CMAS instructor but I don't really see an application for this skill if the point is to stop before getting to the surface. In any event most clubs that I'm aware of do this with the regulator in. Also that's the CMAS standard. If you're hearing otherwise, you may be referencing old materials.

However, that said, the CMAS uses a club system and allows clubs a lot of leeway when it comes to standards. CMAS was also formed in 1959 from an existing organisation called FFESSM that has existed since 1948. The gear was very different, they were inventing the sport "on the fly" and research was done by trying it out in the water. Needless to say training was different back then and I suppose that in some clubs and/or branches of the organisation that there could still be a paradigm today to perform the CESA with the regulator out. The only club that I'm personally aware of that did this until recently (and may still do under certain instructors) was the NELOS in Belgium.

Point being that if the Navy ever did say anything about it, then it's out dated with respect to sport diving and has been since 1977. With the possible exception of a few instructors whose minds are stuck 50 years in the past, nobody -- not even a decently trained French diver -- is going to quote you stuff in a course like you posted above.

R..


---------- Post added June 21st, 2015 at 03:37 AM ----------

There's a french version of the standards available here

I see the link. This is the "ascent trails" as opposed to a CESA as I mentioned above and I believe this is a good example of a club not making the paradigm shift I described.

If you look at page 11 it states
"a la demande du formateur, enlever l’embout sans délai et le garder à la main", which translates to "at the signal of the instructor, remove the regulator without delay and keep it in hand"
That's for the french (real) 3* diver and not their rubbish level 3 diver.

I'm not sure what you mean by this but using antiquated methods that have missed 50 years of refinement in diver training doesn't sound like the hallmark of a "real" diver to me.

R..