Argon Bottle setup

[MikeFerrara]

UP,
Thats all I need is you picking on my writting style (or lack of).
You see the one (-) word just did not invoke the mental picture I was after. After all, ther are over-loads and there are OVER-LOADS. Over-loads may have only two states, over-load and not over-load. I meant to imply that my van could be overloaded to varying degrees. The most extreme condition existing when it is on the ground and full to the top. This, of course, is the condition which has caused me to decide not to bring along a "big" tank for purging and a "small" tank for diving but rather a "bigger" "small" tank for argon period. Perhaps you and I should review my posts and have these little talks prior to posting.

 

[Bob3]

Just thought I'd throw this out here for the heck of it:

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Thermal Insulation Properties of Argon Used as a Dry Suit Inflation Gas

J Risberg and A Hope

Thermal Insulation Properties of Argon Used as a Dry Suit Inflation Gas.
Undersea Hyper Med 2001;28(3):137-143

"Uncontrolled observations from the "technical" diving community claim superior thermal comfort when replacing air with argon as dry suit inflation gas during diving.
The objective of the present experiment was to evaluate the effectiveness of argon compared to air during cold water diving. Body weight, urinary output, and rectal and skin temperatures were measured in six naval divers during two dives to 10 m for 60 minutes.
Level of thermal comfort was reported. Dry suit gas was either argon or air, divers and scientists were blinded for gas identity.
Urinary output was 200 ml less (P<0.05) during the air than the argon dives. Rectal and skin temperature decreased significantly in both groups during the dive but no difference was measured between argon and air dives. Thermal comfort was not different between the groups. Replacing air with argon neither improves subjective impression of thermal comfort nor attenuates core or skin cooling during cold water diving to 10 meters of sea water for 60 minutes.

As far as we know, the theoretical benefit and subjective experience with argon have previously not been challenged by blinded tests. Having a density of 25% higher than air, technical divers claim to hear and feel the difference in suit inflation rate. Blinding may thus be difficult for divers having used argon previously. There is a possibility that the superior thermal comfort is anticipated rather than real. Second, many divers use an Ar-CO2 blend commercially available as welding shield gas.
The added CO2 may theoretically form carbonic acid (H2CO3) at skin surface moistened with sweat or water. One may speculate whether this weak acid (pKa=6.4) may irritate the skin sufficiently to cause a sensation of thermal comfort.

The results of this study indicate a lack of positive thermal effects in operational diving, forcing us to recommend air as dry suit inflation gas for military diving and probably also in recreational (technical) diving."
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[note: "air" does not refer to a mixture with helium in it.]
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http://www.scubadiving.com/talk/read.php?f=1&i=512833&t=512833
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While using argon to stay warmer may not be supported by conventional science, if you THINK you're warmer, it may well be justified under the tenents of "voodo science"
:mean:

 

[wetman]

You know, just when i thought I'd found something i could really benefit from, someone pulls out some science to dissuade me. I've always wondered what the TRUE benefit to it was.

steve

 

[Uncle Pug]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
ther are over-loads and there are OVER-LOADS.

over-loads = an additional set of leaf springs or air adjustable shock absorbers that will enable you to carry a heavier load

 

[Uncle Pug]

wetman once bubbled...
You know, just when i thought I'd found something i could really benefit from, someone pulls out some science to dissuade me.

coffee is bad for you ~ good for you
milk is bad for you ~ good for you
eggs are bad for you ~ good for you
wine is bad for you ~ good for you
blah blah blah ~ blah blah blah

thinkaboutit....

"Would Uncle Pug use argon if it didn't help to keep him warm?"
That is all the science you need.... now go forth and purge.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I wonder...did they measure temperatures throughout the dive or only at the end? You will eventually get cold no matter what you put in your suit but you will not cool at the same rate. They didn't say if they purged or not. I don;t usually bother with argon unless I'm diving trimix but I think it insulates better than air.

 

[roakey]

If it’s only a placebo effect, it’s a GREAT placebo effect.

Roak

 

[Bob3]

...did they measure temperatures ... at the end?

Yah, more like the BOTTOM end though.
Rectal temperature probes were used throughout the dive, temp is monitored continously.
Suits were flushed.
BillP, one of the resident MDs here has the complete article, maybe he'd like to share?

At any rate there Wetman, if you plan on doing any mix diving down the road, you WILL need a suit inflation setup. You're better off sticking with a single configuration so you can instinctively find any piece of your gear at any time under any conditions, even in your sleep.

By the way, I hear METHANE is a better suit gas than either argon or air.

:mean:

 

[divrnr]

I use methane all the time, just have to hit taco bell the night before...:stupid: btw the green sauce works the best...

 

[jessegwalker]

How about a little more science in this discussion? See the text "Mixed Gas Diving" by Tom Mount and Bret Gilliam, page 87. This gives a comparison of specific heats of different gases. The specific heat of Argon is approx. one third that of air, so theoretically a diver will use two thirds less energy to warm the gas in his suit if it is filled with argon.